Sponsorship and ACCOUNTABILITY

[Brock]

Site traffic reveals what the daily number of posts confirm - e-aa is just a dozen or so posters, three or four harassing newcomers and the occasional registereds who mostly lurk in this seedy cybercinema. Like the geriatric regulars in a vintage porno: same old couple of trolls, year in year out...

Let's take just one ongoing thread involving a newcomer, the following twenty have been involved in encouraging and advising, in what now seems to be heading for success, after a person came who couldn't stay sober for a single day -

Cynbad/ Brock /2granddaughters/ leejosepho / Niagara /avaneesh912 /Tosh/ Larryp713 /whipping post /MrsHollman / Layne/ D'oh/ Robert R /clouds/ PaigeB/ Hanna/ Spirit Flower /Stepchild/ Reborn /Lali

Twenty good people who gave of their time in keeping with step twelve, but wait surprise surprise, this thread which is one week old has been dead on topic and helpful, why? Because two names are missing from the list, EZ and #3, who were thank God busy creating discord elsewhere.

[Tosh]

Because two names are missing from the list, EZ and #3, who were thank God busy creating discord elsewhere.

It doesn't happen in a vacuum, Brock, and it was all going okay till someone got annoyed and posted this:

There is some real garbage being thrown around here...I have to feel sorry for someone new to AA checking out what it's all about...And having to wade through this nonsense. It's fricken pitiful. I thank God I don't have to listen to this BS in meetings....It wouldn't fly here. I imagine it wouldn't fly in most meetings anywhere. And that's why it gets dumped here. Too bad.

And it's getting a bit boring to read such negative behaviour under the guise of "but think of the newcomer" as the justification for rude and intolerant posting.

It's a shame; I've learnt so much from this forum over the years - and quite often it was from the contentious posts (Blue Moon used to like an intelligent debate and I loved reading the differing views) that I learnt the most from.

This post was a good subject too, especially for those of us who're interested in sponsoring.

[Brock]

EZ asked -

How many times have you been told to dial down the off-topic personal attacks on other posters--LIKE THE ONE YOU JUST POSTED ABOVE?

About a year and a half ago, I remember a moderator sending me a polite PM, asking that I remove the active drawing of a man beating a horse, that is the only time I have been asked to dial anything down. You see my so called attacks have generally been to defend others from attack, or attempt to make a correction where the book has been misquoted.

...highjacked his thread to argue with another poster over AA's ONE DAY AT A TIME slogan ?

As I remember it was you who advised the new man that we stay sober with your 24hr plan, then continued to raise the subject in other threads, because you enjoy starting these arguments, why just yesterday you baited us again with this -

YPAA has built their now worldwide recovery fellowship on the "goofy slogan" of ONE DAY AT A TIME, the same as the mainstream majority fellowship of AA.

No bites this time, you are the only poster here that others have publicly stated to have put on their 'foe' list, they don't want to see you!

Tosh has said this negative stuff is all getting a bit boring, I agree I don't enjoy this part, but some members only criticize and purposely try to stir things up.

[No.3]

Let's take just one ongoing thread involving a newcomer, the following twenty have been involved in encouraging and advising, in what now seems to be heading for success...

Nice one! No, I don't "have" to answer any troll someone and a few cronies might manufacture here. Others are free to do as they wish, and I'm free to participate on whichever threads I choose.

And that simple fact obviously makes a few sick "AAs" very very angry.

Like I said, this forum is nothing like the real AA I know. Thank God!

[Reborn]

I have gleaned some great info on this site...but I'm not a newcomer and am able to filter the bullsh!t easier these days. I can say that some of the posters here seem to have alot of time on their hands and a thesaurus near by. My sponsor held me accountable to move forward in the steps....he called me on my bullsh!t...asked me "How's that working for you?"....and these things and many others lead me to the sunlight of the spirit. I do the exact same thing with my sponsees today....I hold them accountable to move forward...in my view that is what a sponsor is supposed to do. I'm not sure what everyone else's experience is but I needed another man to help deflate my ego and hold me accountable to keep moving forward....pretty simple isn't it?

[Stepchild]

Let's take just one ongoing thread involving a newcomer, the following twenty have been involved in encouraging and advising, in what now seems to be heading for success...

Nice one! No, I don't "have" to answer any troll someone and a few cronies might manufacture here. Others are free to do as they wish, and I'm free to participate on whichever threads I choose.

And that simple fact obviously makes a few sick "AAs" very very angry.

Like I said, this forum is nothing like the real AA I know. Thank God!

That's quite a share. Amazing really.

[No.3]

My sponsor held me accountable to move forward in the steps....he called me on my bullsh!t...asked me "How's that working for you?"....and these things and many others lead me to the sunlight of the spirit. I do the exact same thing with my sponsees today....I hold them accountable to move forward...in my view that is what a sponsor is supposed to do. I'm not sure what everyone else's experience is but I needed another man to help deflate my ego and hold me accountable to keep moving forward....pretty simple isn't it?

Yes, thank you.
I've heard from a gentleman I'd like to Step-sponsor me (yet again) that his first spons passed along his 4th Step notebook through 2 more spons and the third spons asked (around his 15th year of Sobriety) "Are you ready to make amends to _________, now?" Is that in line with your experience also, Reborn?

My spons says if someone's behavior might lead him to drink, a spons can & should say something. (Another form of ACCOUNTABILITY) I agree, but I spons younger, disordered men whose ethical systems are often severely retarded. I try not to let "counsel with persons" go too far; it would be a full time job otherwise, and I am not qualified for many issues they clearly need help with. I'm ok with the Sponsor-as-whiteboard theme, mostly.

As example, a sponsee (success story) recently asked me if I think that he's now ready for romantic relationship(s) and I replied this way:

1. AA is not the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct, p.69 ; that "wait 12 months" admonition is common prudence, not AA.
2. Elsewhere, Bill W. offers lots of advice about relationships that I don't think appropriate.
3. Your sexlife is really none of my business, but thank you for your respect and confidence in me!
4. My opinion: I see you're still sad/lonely, seem pretty fragile, emotionally fearful, defect-laden: do you feel ready?

We may review and update his Sex Ideal together, if he so desires. Would any here recommend also reading this Grapevine book, Forming True Partnerships – GV34 ? It's fairly new, I haven't read it.

I counseled prayer and finally getting a therapist (HIS and his parents' goal, yet unfulfilled) for his pre-existing outside psych issues. I don't think a spons should EVER be a substitute for seeing a qualified medical/psych professional, but it seems spons are mis-used that way alot.

[avaneesh912]

No. 3 stated:

Yes, thank you.
I've heard from a gentleman I'd like to Step-sponsor me (yet again) that his first spons passed along his 4th Step notebook through 2 more spons and the third spons asked (around his 15th year of Sobriety) "Are you ready to make amends to _________, now?" Is that in line with your experience also, Reborn?
.......

Hey man, I see a civilised post from you. This is a much better way to post your experience, opinion.

[Layne]

Hey man, I see a civilised post from you. This is a much better way to post your experience, opinion.

Not trying to start anything, just trying to show how perceptions can widely vary, in an effort to work towards a more positive sharing atmosphere on the forum, but to me, this type of comment could be viewed as a back handed compliment (or left handed compliment, or asteism).

[avaneesh912]

Holly cow, let me clarify then, it was meant to be a compliment.

[Layne]

I figured that was the case. Just another good example of how easily things can be misconstrued.

[Reborn]

Yes, thank you.
I've heard from a gentleman I'd like to Step-sponsor me (yet again) that his first spons passed along his 4th Step notebook through 2 more spons and the third spons asked (around his 15th year of Sobriety) "Are you ready to make amends to _________, now?" Is that in line with your experience also, Reborn?

I recently had a sponsee that was unwilling to make amends to his mother. He claimed he owed her nothing, that she harmed him in some pretty shocking ways.

I went right to the big book starting on page 76...

Now we need more action, without which we find that "Faith without works is dead." Let's look at Steps Eight and Nine. We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory. We subjected ourselves to a drastic self-appraisal. Now we go out to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of our effort to live on self-will and run the show ourselves. If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes. Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol.

and page 83...

Yes, there is a long period of reconstruction ahead. We must take the lead. A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fill the bill at all. We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that our own actions are partly responsible. So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.

The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it. Unless one's family expresses a desire to live upon spiritual principles we think we ought not to urge them. We should not talk incessantly to them about spiritual matters. They will change in time. Our behavior will convince them more than our words. We must remember that ten or twenty years of drunkenness would make a skeptic out of anyone.

There may be some wrongs we can never fully right. We don't worry about them if we can honestly say to ourselves that we would right them if we could. Some people cannot be seen - we send them an honest letter. And there may be a valid reason for postponement in some cases. But we don't delay if it can be avoided. We should be sensible, tactful, considerate and humble without being servile or scraping. As God's people we stand on our feet; we don't crawl before anyone.

After we read this we looked back at his 4th step and went back through the resentments against his mother. Suddenly it dawned on him that this was not about what she had done or seeking forgiveness but owning up to his part and making an amends for his actions and behavior. If you talk with an alcoholic long enough they will usually come the right conclusion and if they have throroughly followed the path they will usually take the right action. I never claim to be a know-it-all...instead I ask for guidance from my HP and seek a solution in the Big Book. This man wrote his mom an honest amends letter from the heart and now because of this action they have a relationship today. I'm happy that I was a part of this...another example of God doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

[ezdzit247]

One of the questions I asked was:

.... What happened to the newcomer who started a thread looking for help and then disappeared because you and your buddies ignored him and highjacked his thread to argue with another poster over AA's ONE DAY AT A TIME slogan ?

Your answer was:

....As I remember it was you who advised the new man that we stay sober with your 24hr plan, then continued to raise the subject in other threads, because you enjoy starting these arguments....

You apparently have a very poor memory. Suggest you review the thread I was referring to to correct your faulty memory problems:

http://www.e-aa.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... tt#p125138

Suggest you also review the name of the member who started this thread to continue to raise the topic, if only to correct your other faulty memory issues:

http://www.e-aa.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... an#p125589

You did not answer the other questions in my post so please review those questions again and address the issues I raised after self-correcting your faulty memory issues:

What happened to the thousands of other newcomers who have visited this site looking for help and then quietly disappeared, never heard from again? What happened to the newcomer who started a thread looking for help and then disappeared because you and your buddies ignored him and highjacked his thread to argue with another poster over AA's ONE DAY AT A TIME slogan ? Where are the other 8000 plus registered members who have registered but disappeared and no longer post here? How many times have you been told to dial down the off-topic personal attacks on other posters--LIKE THE ONE YOU JUST POSTED ABOVE?

For clarification regarding the last question, I was referring to requests from members of this forum not simply other forum moderators. Personal attacks in various threads in these forums are a HUGE problem and every one of us have to be responsible and accountable for either being part of the solution or part of the problem, right?

[Brock]

Suggest you also review the name of the member who started this thread to continue to raise the topic, if only to correct your other faulty memory issues:

Yes it was me who started the new thread, but to divert the off topic subject into the new thread, and so stop the other one from being corrupted. This is what the moderation team has suggested we do, three cheers to me for doing the right thing.

What happened to the thousands of other newcomers who have visited this site looking for help and then quietly disappeared, never heard from again?

Why are you asking me that, and where do you get your evidence that they were “looking for help,” are you sure you are not counting the spammers who register for advertising purposes and several are deleted daily.

How many times have you been told to dial down the off-topic personal attacks on other posters--LIKE THE ONE YOU JUST POSTED ABOVE?
For clarification regarding the last question, I was referring to requests from members of this forum not simply other forum moderators.

I demonstrated that the moderators have had a harder time with you than me, you have been publicly reprimanded in the past. And I don't really recall other members telling me to tone down, perhaps one or two statements that arguments don't happen in a vacuum.

Listen madam, every time you try to embarrass me with your questions and accusations it backfires in your face, please leave me alone.

[PaigeB]

I cannot imagine how this helps the newcomer. I am looking forward to locking this thread at page 5.