Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Most of us who recovered with AA's program did so with the help of a "sponsor". But what is sponsorship? How do I get one? Who can be a sponsor? What makes a good sponsor?
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Service
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Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by Service » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:56 pm

Are so called Sponsors for non principle based people or people not in A.A yet?

What is the difference between a prospect and a member ?

Do you have a prospect or a member on the hook?

Is it not better to be an example than to look for one?

Does “PERSONAL” willingness mean anything ?

Is God lost or are the people ?

What does it mean in the A.A promises that one will intuitively be able to handle situations that use to baffle them, Is this really just a big joke?

What can't the fellowship do that any-one can ?

Do you know what hospital created the outside sponsorship craze in A.A today ?

Do you know what hospital ward it came from ?

Do you know how the first Alcoholic got admitted to the ward in the hospital ?

Do you know the name of the man that on the third day he put on his pants and walked out a free man never to drink again ?

Do you know when the local spin dry hospitals were introduced to A,A. when only a few woman’s halfway houses and the State mental institution was the main recovery places in the early 80s?.

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by leejosepho » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:42 am

Dr. Silkworth speaks of "the powers of good that lie outside our synthetic knowledge", and then we have this from Step Five in our 12&12:

"...a solitary self-appraisal, and the admission of our defects based upon that alone, wouldn’t be nearly enough. We’d have to have outside help if we were surely to know and admit the truth about ourselves—the help of God and another human being. Only by discussing ourselves, holding back nothing, only by being willing to take advice and accept direction could we set foot on the road to straight thinking, solid honesty, and genuine humility."

In my own case, however, there certainly was not any "craze" about that. Just an awareness of the need and a willingness to ask for help since I could not sort it all out and get it all done on my own.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by avaneesh912 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:42 am

We’d have to have outside help if we were surely to know and admit the truth about ourselves—the help of God and another human being.
Sometimes, I think people just work the steps of the wall. LOL. Even if they did that, I wonder how would one interpret this?
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Perhaps, some people just were guilty for wetting the pants in the bed or some petty stuff, which they can overcome by sharining with the whole group of people and get a laugh or a pat on the shoulder.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by Service » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:17 pm

"ANOTHER HUMAN BEING" you meaning the outside sponsorship system ? This is what makes it a craze that drove down the recovery rate.

Early on sharing with some members, a year later I found myself around a non Alcoholic priest and understood what happened from the 4th (love it when A.A says WHAT HAPPENED and what its like today and I can explain why) not really planed just came out unexpected I found a non Alcoholic priest in my path, I shared talking about what happened. When i got done, I told him that a lot of pretty insane things that went on while drinking, His response I did not expect and surprised me, . (and found it in the back of the Big Book way later) he replied NO NOT REALLY, non drinkers do a lot of those things, but the most insane thing you can do does not come from drinking but being sober! I responded, What the hell could that be ! Knowing what it's like today and picking up another drink ! - Glad I met that human BEING and did not get caught up in all the sober bar room retro dict in the craze.

Take a closer look and keep an open mind if you can, instead of a craze !

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Re: WAT

Post by No.3 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:27 am

I would like to contribute something meaningful here, but I honestly cannot understand this thread at all!

a) I've no clue what this so-called "outside sponsorship craze" is all about. Please provide some factual information to support who what where when, thanks.
b) I'm aware that Sister Mary Ignatia Gavin and Father Ed Dowling were both spiritual advisors ("outside sponsors") to Bill & Dr. Bob ... yet they were not alcoholics. I also believe these "outside sponsors" were very much considered part of the AA Fellowship (one or two craze ppl's opinions notwithstanding) until their respective deaths, and didn't they also attend (many!) closed AA meetings? ... YES or NO.
c) Although I'm no historian, I have good reason to presume those two Roman Catholics were NOT unique as "outside sponsors" (whatever that means) to Protestants (like Bill and Bob) in AA then, or now - see A.A. pp.74-5
d) Among those without an "AA-sponsored AA sponsor" who got sober out-of-the-book (how many thousands of Alcoholics?) from 1939 onwards, we can safely presume many (probably thousands!) also had spiritual advisors of a different faith ("outside sponsors") who were neither Alcoholics nor members of AA. So we can safely presume the practice has ALWAYS been with us, until the contrary assumption is proven with evidence otherwise. Do we know said practice wasn't more prevalent/common in the early 1940s for example?

I'm still confused. Can someone from The Church of the One True Alcoholic please explain who you are burning at the stake today? I'm new in here, and I literally don't understand the "language" you're speaking. It sure doesn't sound like the language of the heart, though.
"The Group demands total loyalty to the inner group. Some have had to leave the movement because of the Groups' demands which conflict with truth or duty." The Oxford Groups by Herbert H. Henson, 1933, pages 73-74.

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Re: WAT

Post by Tosh » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:31 am

No.3 wrote: I'm still confused. Can someone from The Church of the One True Alcoholic please explain who you are burning at the stake today? I'm new in here, and I literally don't understand the "language" you're speaking. It sure doesn't sound like the language of the heart, though.
Service has a bee in his bonnet about sponsorship in general. I think he thinks that God is something 'here' and sponsors are something 'over there', and we're substituting sponsors for God.

I think that's about the gist of it.

I'm not from The Church of the One True Alcoholic (I'm nicking that by-the-way :lol: ) but Service has been around for a few years, sometimes under different names. I think his posts have gotten kinder than they used to be, so he's making progress.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by Service » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:50 pm

No.3
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Question: I'm still confused. Can someone from The Church of the One True Alcoholic please explain – Please console with your high priest your sponsor that's what they are here for.


Question:
I've no clue what this so-called "outside sponsorship craze" is all about. Please provide some factual information to support who what where when, thanks.
1. A.A is an inside job if you like it or not.
2. It begins within
3. There is only one that one that ONE is ? May you find him now.
4. Half measures avail us nothing – Noting from nothing leaves nothing, lol

Here is one of the hundreds of quotes from the book:
“ Nor is the quest for security always expressed in terms of money. How frequently we see a frightened human being determined to depend completely upon a stronger person for guidance and protection. This weak one, failing to meet life’s responsibilities with his own resources, never grows up. Disillusionment and helplessness are his lot. In time all his protectors either flee or die, and he is once more left alone and afraid."

Digest this and read the hundreds of other quotes about co-dependencies in the book, you have to read it in the first person ok conditioned Nov 2nd
Answer to your next question coming soon as questions deserves honest answers too
and from the book it will be not you or me.
Here is a better one yet from A.A not you or me P-15 - How in the mid 70's the injection of your non sense today got started within the walls of A.A
How may “outside” A.A. groups help groups and members in institutions?
Copyright © 1976, 1983
Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.
475 Riverside Drive
Even evil has been around a long time - what's your personal point here? to learn or sponsor? lol

P.S a hint - look at the topics in this forum and you don't think it's a CRAZE,

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by Larryp713 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:14 am

I really can't understand Service's resentments against sponsorship, but I think it is wasted energy for him. A sponsor is simply another AA who has worked the steps and is willing to help a newcomer, or a struggling AA, work the program. There is no mention of codependency, and it is not a requirement.

My personal experience showed me that when I humbly worked the steps with a sponsor, I finally had the spiritual experience that lifted my obsession to drink. It did not work when I tried to do it on my own. I don't know why, but that is my experience. If you got sober without a sponsor, good for you. Share that experience. Signs on the wall read: Live and Let Live. Easy Does It. How are your diatribes against sponsorship keeping you or another sober?
Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny!!!

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by PaigeB » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:11 am

I don't understand either Larry. I have tried talking about my experience - much like yours. I still call my sponsor from time to time, but not every day or even every week - heck sometimes not in a month. But when I do call her, we have a bond of friendship. She never has and doubt she ever will tell me what to do. She is maddening when she says things like, "I will pray for your humility" or "you might want to meditate on balance". Grrrr - Usually it takes me a bit to figure out what she means!

But there is nothing codependent or governing about it. I think Service just had a really bad experience. At least he has turned to a Power greater than himself. There is hope for us all.
Step 6 is "AA's way of stating, the best possible attitude one can take in order to make a beginning on this lifetime job... with most of them we shall have to be content with patient improvement." 12&12 Step Six, p.65

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by Service » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:48 am

PaigeB wrote:I don't understand either Larry. I have tried talking about my experience - much like yours. I still call my sponsor from time to time, but not every day or even every week - heck sometimes not in a month. But when I do call her, we have a bond of friendship. She never has and doubt she ever will tell me what to do. She is maddening when she says things like, "I will pray for your humility" or "you might want to meditate on balance". Grrrr - Usually it takes me a bit to figure out what she means!

But there is nothing codependent or governing about it. I think Service just had a really bad experience. At least he has turned to a Power greater than himself. There is hope for us all.
I had no bad experience myself, I was vindicated from the craze long ago - A blessed story for me, but for thousands of other Alcoholics already here( not outside mind you - clarify that in your mind ) the craze personally affected them in an adverse way, many still around some still looking for another co- dependent to guide them, others after years and years finally got it, some missing in action get calls from them here and there - Seems warning a newcomer at the door prior to being conditioned about the craze, seems to give them back to themselves so they can survive, the oldest one has around 36 years, the youngest a little over a year, the 11 year one still cant confront the sick craze people around him supported, but time will tell if he even needs to clean it up or just learn from it.
Just a suggestion, Maybe A.A is about the ESH in the A.A book, instead of personal experience telling everyone who you called, how much and what a great of bond one has - do you have any family left? if so you may gain some balance with them or is the outside sponsorship and Prospects inside A.A the only thing going for ya :idea:

I asked 2 questions that you see to have a problem with answering or live and let live
1. What step told you to get an outside sponsor in A.A. ?
2. What Tradition of A.A told you to do it ? Was it promoted to you by peoples craze / praise ?

Take a closer look outside yourself !

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by PaigeB » Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:30 pm

Yes, I have a family and it is difficult to take the principles of the program (love & tolerance) outside the rooms and into my home and my community, but I am working on it. Progress not perfection.

I went through the Steps alone one time and ended up drunk. I went through them with a sponsor who helped me see that I had a perception problem. I haven't found it necessary to take a drink in over 6 years. She still helps me see things differently - like the socks that are always in the middle of the floor. Sometimes I see them as a direct attack & total disregard for all I do (ego) and she reminds me that I am in this world as a servant, trying only to seek god's will for me and ask for the power to carry that out.

I have a disease of perception that my fellow AA's help me with every time I go to a meeting!

I will however edit & or delete any posts that become pointed directly at me or any other person. And my perception can still be off. Feel free to complain to the Group Conscience.
Step 6 is "AA's way of stating, the best possible attitude one can take in order to make a beginning on this lifetime job... with most of them we shall have to be content with patient improvement." 12&12 Step Six, p.65

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by Service » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:27 pm

Top

Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Postby PaigeB » Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:30 pm

I will however edit & or delete any posts that become pointed directly at me

And then some! Expected from the outside sponsorship system inside A.A that's what makes it a craze

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by Service » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:44 pm

Ok lets leave you out
I have a disease of perception that my fellow AA's help me with every time I go to a meeting!
Someone should go to a meeting !

Heard many cries from co-dependents, it's what makes the old family disease connect with Alcoholism - is it the need for leadership to create a follow-ship rather than having interdependence and fellowship ? in simple words developing (not learning) to grow up,and utilize the God given resources he given us within, (There is one thing ones got to know about our childhood, IT"S OVER)- But I am not here to make any fun of institutional/ governMental needs, or someone going around having to justifying their existence to others, It just seems to conflicts with the spiritual principles and A.A purpose.

Question: maybe something is wrong with one having to tell another to try to get them to calm down ? Is this called STRENGTH ? obviously an EXPERIENCE, HOPE or Hopeless? Is this the true need and purpose of the outside sponsorship system inside A.A ?

Honest questions deserves honest answers !!!

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by PaigeB » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:13 pm

I don't feel the need to justify anything and I don't think I am obligated to answer any questions.

Each of us in on our own inner journey. As an atheist, I imagine mine is quite different than some others but
The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism.
I hope we all find Peace.
Step 6 is "AA's way of stating, the best possible attitude one can take in order to make a beginning on this lifetime job... with most of them we shall have to be content with patient improvement." 12&12 Step Six, p.65

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Re: Outside sposorship Craze inside A.A

Post by Larryp713 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:48 am

Service wrote: Just a suggestion, Maybe A.A is about the ESH in the A.A book, instead of personal experience telling everyone who you called, how much and what a great of bond one has - do you have any family left? if so you may gain some balance with them or is the outside sponsorship and Prospects inside A.A the only thing going for ya :idea:

I asked 2 questions that you see to have a problem with answering or live and let live
1. What step told you to get an outside sponsor in A.A. ?
2. What Tradition of A.A told you to do it ? Was it promoted to you by peoples craze / praise ?

Take a closer look outside yourself !
From the Big Book, page 92: "Show him, from your own experience... Don't, at this stage, refer to this book... Keep his attention focussed mainly on your personal experience."

Forward to the First Edition: "We of Alcoholics Anonymous... have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book." It is also the primary purpose of the fellowship of AA, per the 5th tradition.

A resentment for the term "sponsor" is similar to newcomers who abhor the term God. It is really one's perception of that role that is driving these diversions from the message of hope AA should share. Whether you call the person a sponsor, mentor, friend of Bill, etc... the support and direction a recovered alcoholic can share with a newcomer will be extremely helpful if that person is spiritually fit, and the newcomer is willing. It has worked for so many, that to claim this practice is harmful is not supported by fact.

There are bad sponsors. There are unwilling sponsees. AA teaches all that we should only be dependent on God. But it also teaches us to be open-minded and willing to take action.

God most often speaks to me through the mouths of recovered alcoholics. I am edified by those who share their experience, strength, and hope with me, especially those who couple their message with passages from the Big Book. It helps me see those passages with a new set of eyes, and I learn more.

William Blake wrote: "I sought my soul, but my soul I could not see. I sought my God, but my God eluded me. I sought my brother, and I found all three." I am never closer to God than when I am sharing my experience with another alcoholic. I would love to hear your messages of hope, Service, because you clearly have a passion for AA. Thank you and be blessed. Larry
Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny!!!

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