AA and religion etc...

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Tuff Gong
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by Tuff Gong » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:39 pm

This early AA as gospel and the true pure AA form is about as juvenile as it can get, divisive and repugnant. Using the text as a dogmatic weapon in belittling and discrediting someone's concept of God is pathetic and makes me want to walk away from this great spiritual program that Bill tried so hard to make as open as possible.

Early AAs were just like contemporary AAs = a mixed bag with atheists and the devout (go read about Fitz M and Jim B)

Divisive orthodoxy is fear inflated judgement and erodes an incredible program.

If someone believes that the collective human population is their idea of God then for the love of that God and all others pocket the judgement and find the common ground of being "not God" and the release from bondage.
I have no issues with God. It's His judgemental fanclub that bothers me.

TMD
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by TMD » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:02 pm

I actually have a question about this. Is it alright to have more than one higher power/god? For instance Hindus and Pagans?

I read the Pagans in Recovery Wikipedia page found here-
link removed in accordance with board policy

This bit was particularly interesting-
" Pagans have been "ousted from A.A. meetings or shunned" when members of that A.A. group discovered that they were Pagans. However this type of conduct would not be approved by A.A. itself as any person who "has a desire to stop drinking" may declare themselves a member of A.A."

Thoughts?

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ann2
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by ann2 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:05 pm

Wouldn't happen in my meetings.
"If I don't take twenty walks, Billy Beane send me to Mexico" -- Miguel Tejada

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PaigeB
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by PaigeB » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:28 am

I'm Paige, an alcoholic... I cannot imagine it happening either. I am known in my community (by most) to be an atheist. I was never shunned, let alone ousted. I have many many friends and have been asked to speak on occasion! This is about getting good, not getting god.

I hope you find what you are looking for!
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

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leejosepho
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by leejosepho » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:51 am

Tuff Gong wrote:This early AA as gospel and the true pure AA form is about as juvenile as it can get, divisive and repugnant.
You have misunderstood or mis-interpreted what is going on. I do not present anything as "gospel" or as "true pure form". I simply share the only thing known to me: The common experience shared within "Alcoholics Anonymous", the book.
Tuff Gong wrote:Using the text as a dogmatic weapon in belittling and discrediting someone's concept of God ...
... is not even being done here.
Tuff Gong wrote:... find the common ground of being "not God" and the release from bondage.
An interesting book, but written by someone who had never actually experienced the stuff shared within "A.A.", the book.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

Tuff Gong
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by Tuff Gong » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:51 am

Lee,

Amazing how you fail to see the tone and content of your own posts.

The idea of "God is people and people is God" is expressly challenged by the personal experience shared within our Basic Text:

"(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism."

The message received is the "true way" of early AA. Dismount from the high horse.
I have no issues with God. It's His judgemental fanclub that bothers me.

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leejosepho
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by leejosepho » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:20 am

Tuff Gong wrote:Lee,

Amazing how you fail to see the tone and content of your own posts.
My tone is quiet and the content is accurate, but not all people hear things that way.
Tuff Gong wrote:The idea of "God is people and people is God" is expressly challenged by the personal experience shared within our Basic Text:

"(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism."

The message received is the "true way" of early AA.
That depends upon the ear of the listener. Our book is a book of experience, and here is the experience those folks shared:

"... wrecked in the same vessel, being restored and united under one God ..." (page 161)

They might have been completely delusional, or maybe Bill was lying when he wrote that. But in any case, that is what those folks have shared about what they had shared ... and in no way were they trying to tell anyone else what to believe. Today, however, quite the opposite is true now that humanism, pantheism and/or whatever else is either accepted or else people like me get run off. Strange, eh?!
Tuff Gong wrote:Dismount from the high horse.
"What an order! I can't go through with it." I do not even own one.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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ann2
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by ann2 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:50 am

This has to end. The forums are not a place for this kind of back-and-forthing. Take it to pms gentlemen.

Ann
"If I don't take twenty walks, Billy Beane send me to Mexico" -- Miguel Tejada

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Karl R
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by Karl R » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:20 pm

I would echo Ann.

take it to the private message level.

Karl--forums coordinator....

santaslittlehelper
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by santaslittlehelper » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:18 am

I took this question to my priest because I didn't understand what was being said in here. It was so backwards and forwards. My priest read the Big Book and said that this was wrong. It is directly against the second commandment. He said that AA meetings in our church were heretical and he would take it up with the bishop. Has anyone come across this before?

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marietta
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by marietta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:51 am

Your priest considers this a violation of the Second Commandment: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain"? Why? There is absolutely nothing blasphemous or heretical in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. If anything, the text calls upon us to develop or regenerate a relationship with God. Meetings where discussions of God and His love and mercy take place should certainly be welcome in a Catholic church.

As a Catholic alcoholic, I submit that your priest is in error. Either he did not read the entire text and claims he did (lie) or he has failed to examine your question in depth (sloth, perhaps?) If he's going to represent the Catholic faith and all of its rules and regulations and orders and mandates and decrees and dogma and doctrine, he needs to do some more homework, and he needs to take your inquiry seriously.

marietta
"There can be nothing more frequent than an occasional drink." ~ Oscar Wilde

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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by santaslittlehelper » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:02 am

We're Protestant. That's the third commandment. I think it's the one about no idols or other gods.

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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by Steven F » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:24 am

If you ask me, the fact that some guys in different buildings dispute which ten commandments are actually the right ones, is already quite telling. Especially since it is different combinations of the same words :-). I personally have my own mix of beliefs, concepts and ideas. From what I known of church, that is no different from just about everyone present in services. Everyone has their own interpretation, even of the stuff that is dogmatic. I would say, from what I experience from early childhood, sometimes especially on the stuff that is dogmatic. Many read the same book and go to the same celebrations, but still see many things differently. Both at a "theoretical" and practical level.

But that is irrelevant - it is just me, and you have your own path to find in this. What is relevant for your question is that churches have long ago taken position on AA - you are not the first to ask. I have found that this position is not so much found in endorsement, but in lack or existence of disapproval. If it is important to you what your own posse thinks about it, lots can be found on Google. More can be found with those who are full-time dedicated to the spiritual side of your religion. In your case that would be monks and nuns. And then there are those in the clergy who are also members of AA.

Whatever it is, AA as an organisation and as a programme doesn't care about that. Your concept of "god" is personal and free for you to have. I find that the easiest way to respect that is to try not to talk too much about these concrete concepts :-).

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marietta
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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by marietta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:26 am

You're Protestant but you have a priest?

In any event, when considering any of the Ten Commandments, the Big Book is in spiritual alignment. What's the nature of your problem?

marietta
"There can be nothing more frequent than an occasional drink." ~ Oscar Wilde

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Re: AA and religion etc...

Post by santaslittlehelper » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:33 am

Yes. Protestant priest - his title is Vicar and he is an ordained priest? Why do you ask? He was concerned with the link to the Oxford Group. Apparently they were banned by the Catholic Church for heresy, but you would know more about that, being Catholic.

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