Question on esteemable acts ?

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Postby trent » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:26 am

"Who's passing judgement? "

"I suggest you find a sponsor who's worked the program "Alcoholics Anonymous" using the book of the same name."
"I agree with Blue Moon. Your "sponsor" sounds more like a therapist or counselor than a sober member of AA. "
"you may want to consider a sponsor who has worked the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. "

They all imply you that you guys know this person well enough from the original post to imply they should look for another sponsor. Right? That is is not judgment? IT is, on not a lot of information. How do you know what this person has or has not done?

If I said my sponsor asked me to get a tube of lipstick and write on my mirror that God does not make $hit how would you judge it? He did ask me to do that. You could judge without really knowing in why's or thinking behind it right, not in the book, not the message of aa, not this not that. But yet he felt at the time it might be something benificial for me to.

In my earlier post about my sponsor asking about what I really enjoyed in life, and he made me write them down, and it was before the 4th step, why did he do that? I don't, but what it did was help me realise just how far down I had gone and that crap I better do all I am capaple of to find that change because I don't want to die like that. I would like a little fire in my life for life. How do I get there?
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Postby Layne » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:39 am

Lots of strong opinions expressed here. Opinions are a necessary and vital part of an individual's makeup. Not everyone else needs to hear our opinions though. When listening to other alcoholics, I need to hear what worked for you, not what you think I ought to do. Thanks,
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Postby Blue Moon » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:49 am

trent wrote:They all imply you that you guys know this person well enough from the original post to imply they should look for another sponsor. Right? That is is not judgment? IT is, on not a lot of information. How do you know what this person has or has not done?


And you're not passing any judgement at all?

If I said my sponsor asked me to get a tube of lipstick and write on my mirror that God does not make $hit how would you judge it?


If you asked how or where to find the information to carry out this instruction in the book, I'd have to assume your sponsor hadn't already told you it's not in the book. In which case, I'd have no problem suggesting you make sure you have a sponsor who's actually recovered from alcoholism using AA's program.
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Postby marietta » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:56 am

When I came to that turning point and chose to quit drinking one day at a time I heard folks around the meetings, and during the meetings, say lots of things which did and did not make sense to me. "Let me show you how this coffee pot works" made sense. " . . . a loving God as He may express Himself . . ." not only made no sense to me, it infuritated me, as I had not yet been introduced to a loving God. We each have our own road to trudge, and over the years I've adopted philosophies and ideas based on the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions which are not necessarily mentioned in the Big Book. When a crisis arises, I use my old AA friend Rosemary's response: "It's going to be interesting to see how this turns out in my favor." This attitude is a direct decendant of page 449 in the Big Book: "And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or institution - some fact of my life - unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I acccept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life's terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes."
I put the whole quote in this forum because there just might be a newcomer scoping us out, searching for a solution to his or her drinking problem(s). I know you AA Cowboys get it, but let's not forget those who still suffer, particularly those on the brink and facing the daunting fear of divorcing their Best Friend, alcohol so they can take those first tentative steps into a new, enriched, and blessed way of life.
"There can be nothing more frequent than an occasional drink." ~ Oscar Wilde
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Postby Blue Moon » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:03 am

Layne wrote:When listening to other alcoholics, I need to hear what worked for you, not what you think I ought to do.


I also need to hear what did not work for you. I don't have the time or sufficient chances at recovery to make all the mistakes myself.
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Postby Layne » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:13 am

I don't have the time or sufficient chances at recovery to make all the mistakes myself.

LOL, sometimes I feel like I have cornered the market on mistakes. For a time, I was sure there was going to be a poster made with my picture on it saying "Don't let this happen to you!"
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Postby BigBookGirl » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:26 am

marietta wrote:I know you AA Cowboys get it, but let's not forget those who still suffer, particularly those on the brink and facing the daunting fear of divorcing their Best Friend, alcohol so they can take those first tentative steps into a new, enriched, and blessed way of life.


And a lot of those who are still suffering are doing so needlessly, by the influences of "easier, softer" non-AA messages, and quite often, by non-alcoholics who do not grasp the seriousness of our disease as described in the Book, and testified to by the stories told by those first hundred or so recovered, and therefore do not see the necessity in doing the deal whole heartedly and honestly. They have the leisure of skimping here and there, and getting by with bare minimum effort, because they don't know the hopelessness and desperation of a drinker who has done a lot of damage and has a life to repair, not just maintain on the plain they were existing on, but doing it without the drink.

If I were a newcomer subjected to a bunch of silly slogans like "take it easy" and "90 meetings in 90 days", and thought that sitting in a meeting day after day, eating donuts and drinking coffee and having a smoke outside before returning home to figure out what to do with the rest of my day.....ahhhhhh.

I don't believe so much that we are "Cowboys that get it", but we are people who don't believe in the cushy, therapeutic, slogan riddled and lopsided messages that are so prevalent in AA today. And it has nothing to do with resentments or finding fault in others. There is a strong, undeniable, proven method of removing the obsession to drink. It is found in the Big Book, and there are just too many people out there unneedingly influencing newcomers with non-AA messages.
~Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol.~ BB pg.76
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Postby BigBookGirl » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:42 am

When did the steps become homework assignments anyways?
~Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol.~ BB pg.76
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Postby marietta » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:56 am

"AA Cowboy": experienced recovery long-timer who compassionately rides the vast range of alcoholic pain, despair, longing, hope, and humor. Ideally tends the herd with honesty, openmindedness and willingness. Vehemently espouses principles set forth in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. Considers "easier and softer" anathema. Places principles before personalities.

He don't carry no side-arms. Where's all this pugilism and name-callin' comin' from? Sorry, folks. Guess I had it wrong. 25 Hail Marys comin' up!
"There can be nothing more frequent than an occasional drink." ~ Oscar Wilde
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Postby BigBookGirl » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:19 am

marietta wrote:Vehemently espouses principles set forth in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.


Well slap my saddle and call me a Cowboy! Yee haa!
~Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol.~ BB pg.76
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Postby ProsaicSteelGirder » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:28 am

by the influences of "easier, softer" non-AA messages, and quite often, by non-alcoholics who do not grasp the seriousness of our disease


So, there seems to be folks in AA meetings who have a desire not to drink who are probably not alcoholics, but one time hard drinkers that could quit drinking without having a vital spiritual experience necessary for us "real" alcoholics to have the obession removed and be restored to sanity.
Might be worth the breath, energy, and time to point that out to newcomers and help them "qualify" themselves to see if they are alcoholics who really need to work the Steps. After all, who but the most desperate would desire to put themselves through the drastic proposals outlined as our Program of recovery?
We absolutely insist on enjoying life. We try not to indulge in cynicism over the state of the nations, nor do we carry the world's troubles on our shoulders.
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Postby trent » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:07 pm

Great, some real discusion!

"And you're not passing any judgement at all?"

Ofcourse I am silly! I am passing judgment on you guys that can spew AA advice based on a few words written in a foroum.

Since Action is a word that has come up, what is the action involved in the first step?
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Postby Blue Moon » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:27 pm

trent wrote:Since Action is a word that has come up, what is the action involved in the first step?


Drinking whilst wanting not to :)
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Postby dennis » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:34 am

No one here is qualified to diagnose that some person is or is not a real alcoholic. It's a personal judgment that each person makes for themselves about themselves.

AA very explicitly doesn't have membership drives trying to argue or frighten people with drinking problems to join AA.

AA does not keep membership records. People on this board presenting numbers as some sort of valid official AA statistic are making these numbers up out of whole cloth.

No one AA member speaks for AA. A huge majority of what's posted on this board as authoritative is in reality personal opinion.

AA very explicitly does not claim to be the only solution for a drinking problem or alcoholism. AA has no opinion on outside issues, and that includes other methods of recovery from alcoholism.

There are very definite suggestions in our literature that when we meet someone who doesn't want to recover through our program that we encourage them to try other methods and be willing to welcome them back at any time.

What AA very explicitly does do is offer its help to any alcoholic. Anyone with a drinking problem - or who even *thinks* they have a drinking problem is explicitly welcome to attend our meetings and decide on their own if they qualify for membership and want to be members.

My opinion here - the vast majority of what is posted on this board is a skewed version of AA that completely ignores decades of AA experience and the collective conscience of the fellowship as a whole.

My experience is that the AA program led me to a happy life free of alcohol, I can wholeheartedly endorse it. I found AA to be very welcoming and supportive when I first joined. As with any large collection of people there are those I am incompatible with at some level. But there is just a huge and diverse collection of members and groups - we're all free to associate with those we chose.

I think it's regrettable that so many of the postings here are so unwelcoming to people with a drinking problem. I feel that the suggestions that people who don't follow some rigidly defined path to sobriety are either "not real alcoholics" or their sobriety is of some "low quality" or is not "true sobriety" are particularly unfortunate.

My experience is that continued drinking is a very unsuccessful way to solve a drinking problem! I encourage any and all alcoholics to quit drinking any way they can. There is no bad way to save your life.

In AA you'll meet many that are more than willing to help and support you in your efforts, and you are more than welcome in the fellowship
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Postby Jim 725 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:05 am

Since Action is a word that has come up, what is the action involved in the first step?

Admitting (and facing) my alcoholism.
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