Question on esteemable acts ?

For recovery discussion

Question on esteemable acts ?

Postby Sabbir » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:04 pm

My sponsor told me "make a list of 12 things that will improve my self esteem, and reference it to esteemable acts in step 1 and 2"

Does anybody know what esteemable acts means?
Can you please give me an example?
Do you know where this is written about in the books or literature?

Thnak you so much.

God Bless

Sabbir
Sabbir
Forums Newcomer
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:47 am

Postby Blue Moon » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:09 am

If you want to recover from alcoholism using AA's program, I suggest you find a sponsor who's worked the program "Alcoholics Anonymous" using the book of the same name. From your post, it doesn't sound to me as though your sponsor fits this category.

The book references 1 "esteemable act", but places great emphasis on it. It's described in Chapter 7. But it's preceeded by a bunch of other actions outlined in chapters 2-6, which I'd say are largely necessary to be successful with chapter 7 without having a need to drink over the possible outcome.

Of course, there are all sorts of things which could help or hinder self-esteem. But what they have to do with Steps 1 or 2 is quite irrelevant. You could take the one action which could most boost your self-esteem, yet without recovery from alcoholism if the outcome isn't as you expect then you will probably drink again.

That's why Step 9 is at Step 9, not Step 1.5.
Ian S
AKA Blue Moon
User avatar
Blue Moon
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3561
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New Jersey

Postby Jim 725 » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:20 am

Drinking boosted my self esteem. So did lying, stealing, cheating on my wife, and taking credit for someone else's work. Is that the kind of stuff your "sponsor" is looking for?
I agree with Blue Moon. Your "sponsor" sounds more like a therapist or counselor than a sober member of AA.
Jim S.
Jim 725
 

Postby trent » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:32 am

Maybe just ask your sponsor the why and what for and what do they mean.

I don't know in and of themselfs there is anything wrong with the questions.

Lets see, what can improve my self esteem today, ha, wrecking a boat on a River. Yep. I did it, well, I was not driving, but was in the boat and survived so have bragging rights and that helps my self esteem a lot.

But in early sobriety I don't think I could answer that question either. I remember my sponsor asking me what I REALLY liked doing, aside from drinking, you know what really enjoyed and sparked the fire in me. I could not answer that at the time. There was no fire left for anything. Well, jeez, I guess I like skiing and fishing, but I lost the lust for that stuff in the last few years of drinking I did not really enjoy anything anymore, unless it involved drinking.
trent
Forums Enthusiast
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:01 am

Postby BigBookThumper » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:03 am

Like BlueMoon has replied, you may want to consider a sponsor who has worked the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Boosting one's self esteem is fine. However, by doing such that would lead one to believe that the CAUSE of our drinking was low self esteem. Our literature tells us that there were no causes to our alcoholism. You may ask yourself, did you drink on a day when your self esteem was good? What about when your self esteem was poor?

We ask God in our third step prayer to remove us from the bondage of self. Not to give us a boost in our self esteem.
BigBookThumper
Forums Newcomer
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:30 am
Location: Plano, TX

Postby trent » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:46 pm

So you guys can judge if someone is a worthy sponsor or not from one sentence on an internet forum? Get real.
trent
Forums Enthusiast
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:01 am

Postby Blue Moon » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:04 pm

trent wrote:So you guys can judge if someone is a worthy sponsor or not from one sentence on an internet forum? Get real.


If an AA sponsor suggests a sponsee do something, the directions for which are not outlined in any AA literature, why would the sponsee not be given sufficient information to carry out that suggestion without needing to resort to an internet resource only to learn that the suggestion is not in any AA literature?

Alcoholism, and recovery therefrom, is a life or death business for a real alcoholic. If revealing the fact of some advice not being written as part of the recovery process upsets a few "sponsors" who are not taking a newcomer through AA's documented recovery process that really works, tough.
Ian S
AKA Blue Moon
User avatar
Blue Moon
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3561
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New Jersey

Postby trent » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:28 pm

lol, Jeez blue. Again, get real. Consider you sit here in judgment of what? Someone asks their sponsee to write on a question. It is not a question in the Big Book, so they are an unworthy sponsor. Naw. Not even. Are you God? Do you know the person? That is crazy.

Bill W. left a lot of doors open. Look at some of the questions he asks for consideration in the 12 and 12. Not only that he says something to the effect that there may be other questions to ask, depending on each individual. He also mentions pointing out assets. But you guys seem of the opinion that if it is not in the big book then anything else is just flat out wrong and I say pull your heads out of your ass and stop making judgements and giving advice you are in no position to give. You are screwing with people in a way you should not be period.
trent
Forums Enthusiast
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:01 am

Postby marietta » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:37 pm

I'm like every other alcoholic, drunk or sober, that I know: never had the nerve to ask for clarification, never felt entitled to trouble someone for more info, always spending time and energy trying to decipher what someone said to me or suggested to me rather than just flat-out asking, "What do you mean?" or "Where can I find out more about this?"
Maybe this comes under the umbrella of the Serenity Prayer. We need to pray for the courage to change the things we can and this, being a character defect of mine, needs constant tweaking in the recovery process. The Serenity Prayer gets me through most anything, as does asking God for knowlege of His will for me and the power to carry that out. If He is calling the shots and I am happy in humility and willingness, my life is manageable and has a real shape to it that it did not have during my drinking years. I know people who subscribe to recovery without a Higher Power. I'm not one of them.
"There can be nothing more frequent than an occasional drink." ~ Oscar Wilde
User avatar
marietta
Forums Contributor
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:33 pm

Postby trent » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:17 pm

Bluemoon, accept my apology for telling you to pull your head out of your ass. I feel like this forum has become a place of constant judgment on how people are doing the program right or wrong. I disagree with that. And I think it is dangerous.

My sponsor asked me to do all sorts of weird things that are not "in" the big book. And he was a serious Big Book thumper at the time and still is, well both of them are, do I have 1 or 2 sponsors now I have not figured out since my old one I thought was dead turned out not to be. go figure. Anyway -

I still don't understand many of the things he asked me to do to this day other then I think he was just trying to give me something to do sometimes to keep me from doing something stupid like blowing my head off. Some things were really cool though, and I still cherish them fondly. Does that make him a bad sponsor? No. He passed on his experience. He passed on his experience, his story with drinking, with the steps, the books, AA, he was there for me, helped me learn to want to live again. The foundation, I think the essance, of the program. One alcoholic helping another.

We ask, or suggest all sorts of things that are not in the big book. Who is to say what is good and what is not? Have you ever suggested to a newcomer they might make themselfs usefull helping to clean up the room? Why did you ask them that? Or maybe you have not. I don't know. But it is fairley common.

The book says a lot of really cool things you know. Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. ........

It does not say sit in front of a computer telling someone they don't have a good sponsor based a bit of information. That is nothing. And it irritates me that you and others on here do that. It is very...nevermind, you get the point.

The program, through the steps, the meetings, service, brings me to a spirtitual awakening. I live for it. I carry this message to the alcoholic who still suffers. Through my experience, through my story, through my example. The book sets the foundation for it, the steps, but that is not all there is to it. Is it? Is that all you give people is the book, say here you go, figure it out, and I wont talk about anything else outside of what is written in it? Is that how this program sprang from nothing but hoplessness for the alcoholic?
trent
Forums Enthusiast
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:01 am

Postby trent » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:41 pm

I am on a ranting AA rave tonight, never said I was not without fault, but what is my example. I'll be fair, sometimes it really sucks - like getting sucked into a forum disagreement that I started is a perfect example of a sucky example. Just don't drink over it. Go to 90 meetings in 90 days and it will all be alright.

:twisted:

I wonder if I will get banned or deleted.

Sabbir - take all this with a rain of salt. sorry to turn it into the mess it is. Ask your sponsor to explain the why's. Or get another one. Don't give up either way, things could be pretty good.
trent
Forums Enthusiast
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:01 am

Postby Blue Moon » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:17 am

trent wrote:Consider you sit here in judgment of what? Someone asks their sponsee to write on a question. It is not a question in the Big Book, so they are an unworthy sponsor. Naw. Not even. Are you God? Do you know the person? That is crazy.


Who's passing judgement?

The OP asked a very valid question... "where in AA literature are the directions to carry out a particular instruction".

The sponsor in question may be an excellent sponsor. He or she may be quite au fait with the Big Book, the recovery process, may be exactly what a newcomer needs to recover.

But on the limited evidence offered, I see nothing to support such an assumption. I'd quickly reconsider if more information arises, but it seems even less wise or reasonable to pass judgement on a sponsor as being "suitable" despite having no evidence to support the conclusion.

We could simply shrug and say "ask your sponsor". But if a sponsor hasn't worked the recovery process, he or she won't have the answers.

I've seen people try to be "sponsors" who are still active! My own first "sponsor" was drinking and should not have been trying to sponsor anyone, and was sharing with me BS that I needed to quickly deprogram in order to recover. The only good thing he did for me was to be carried drunk into a meeting by 2 other members... that gave me the realisation that this is not something to mess about with, and the strength to "fire" his ass and find a sponsor who had recovery to share, rather than continue to allow my own alcoholic people-pleasing nature to slowly kill me by trying to learn recovery from a wet drunk.

Do I think the Big Book is the be-all and end-all? Not at all. In many areas it has more holes than a swiss cheese! But from my experience I do think it contains the instructions to recover from alcoholism. And frankly, it disappoints me to see how frequently messages are shared around the rooms of AA which directly contradict AA's own recovery program. If sober AA's don't speak out against this practice, who will? Suggestions such as "don't work the Steps until you've been sober at least a year" are highly dangerous nonsense - surely far more so than bringing into question the suitability of a direction that's not found in AA's books.

If I'd been given that advice by a sponsor, and followed it, I would be either dead or locked up. There's no lingering doubt in my mind on this point. That may work for people who find they "fit in" easily in AA whether drunk or sober, but not for this alcoholic. Y'see, fellowship alone neither got nor kept me sober.

So having recovered from alcoholism, I share based on my own experience of the recovery process, both good and bad. I'm sorry if someone else finds it distressing, but I might be saving their life. If I come into a meeting suffering and dying from this thing, please don't give me someone offering pats on the back and lies such as "there, there, just keep coming back, it'll be all right".... that might boost my flagging self-esteem and my ego, but what I'd really need is someone to tell me exactly what I need to do to recover.

That someone is a "sponsor".

Anyone else may be very friendly to associate with, can support and encourage me when the going gets tough, but doesn't have what I really need to get better so shouldn't qualify with the "sponsor" label.
Ian S
AKA Blue Moon
User avatar
Blue Moon
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3561
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New Jersey

Postby marietta » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:51 am

Is this a stream of personal messages, or can anyone play?
User avatar
marietta
Forums Contributor
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:33 pm

Postby trent » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:08 am

Jump right on it :D
trent
Forums Enthusiast
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:01 am

Postby Blue Moon » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:12 am

trent wrote:Bluemoon, accept my apology for telling you to pull your head out of your ass.


Not a problem :) If my head is up my ass, I need telling about it so I can take stock and do what I must to pull it back out again.

And if it's really not, I then need to make a decision whether to try and clarify something I'd said, or otherwise shut up on the basis the other person probably isn't listening (usually due to having his or her own head up their ass...).

I feel like this forum has become a place of constant judgment on how people are doing the program right or wrong.


You may be right. It's not always easy to balance "fellowship" with "program". I do think there's a place for both, and both are a part of the overall recovery experience / process.

What I find problematic is when one gets confused with the other. There are acts of "fellowship" that are very valid acts, but just shouldn't trump or replace actions of "program".

I really don't think someone should work the Steps in isolation.

But I also don't think someone should ignore the Steps until after they feel better or have been dry and around the meetings a while.

do I have 1 or 2 sponsors now I have not figured out since my old one I thought was dead turned out not to be. go figure.


Hmm. That sounds like an odd situation that could throw anyone off-beam.

No wonder you're grumpy 8)

We ask, or suggest all sorts of things that are not in the big book. Who is to say what is good and what is not? Have you ever suggested to a newcomer they might make themselfs usefull helping to clean up the room? Why did you ask them that?


I certainly have. In my experience, most newcomers have a problem "fitting in". So there are little suggestions to help them "keep coming back" without feeling such a square peg ... stuff to be keeping busy rather than the old "me" of standing in a corner uselessly waiting for something to happen.

But what I also do is try to explain why it can be useful, and I don't try to hook it into taking any recovery Step. Those, in my experience, are mostly worked outside the fellowship meeting rooms of AA.
Ian S
AKA Blue Moon
User avatar
Blue Moon
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3561
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New Jersey

Next

Return to Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests