When we forgive:

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When we forgive:

Postby avaneesh912 » Wed May 16, 2018 4:07 am

Tolle puts it in perspective what happens when we forgive:

The moment you truly forgive, you have reclaimed your power from the mind. Non-forgiveness is the very nature of the mind, just as the mind-made false self, the ego, cannot survive without strife and conflict. The mind cannot forgive. Only you can. You become present, you enter your body, you feel the vibrant peace and stillness that emanate from Being.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby JungianRecovery » Wed May 16, 2018 2:28 pm

I get what's meant here.

When I forgive, i feel it in my body. I feel this pressure lift off my chest and throat. It's like I've received a new neck.
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby PaigeB » Wed May 16, 2018 3:21 pm

Forgiveness was the topic of the Daily Reflection today... I wrote this in response:
Re: 16th May Daily Reflection
by PaigeB » Wed May 16, 2018 4:48 pm
If I can forgive Ms. X for her rudeness - can I forgive myself?

I have to, at some point, accept that I am human and prey to the Bedevilments on page 52. That Step 2 revelation takes me back to Step 1 Acceptance right? But upon acceptance I must decide what to do about it - which jets me right into the Decision in Step 3 - a contract to go further in this process.

Then More work in Step 4. Then the blurt-out-the-uglies session with my sponsor. If she does not immediately die from hearing it, I will find I CAN BE forgiven. I need to take that leap of faith in order to get the benefit of real Faith.

There are a lot of revelations in Step 5 - opportunities to practice that Leap as I look up from my 4th Step to check on the well being of my sponsor - and make sure she is not about to throw me out of her house! Of course I get her love & understanding - she has much practice with accepting her own humanity and practicing Faith.

People have done things to me and I have done things to them... what do I know now? We are fallible humans.

SO ~ If I can forgive Ms. X for her rudeness - can I forgive myself? THIS has been harder... tedious learning and practicing and leaping and praying... Can I let go of disapproving of myself? Where is my acceptance? I have to get done with this problem of resentment - which exists in my own mind? I can see where I was wrong, but can I see that I am human and my only hope, as a human, is to have Help from a Power Greater - whatever that power may be. AA can restore me to sanity - I learned that in Step 2 many years ago - can I now go one Step further - literally leap off the cliff and Know that I will land in a sane place? Can I see I don't have to live up to my crazy ideas of how the way humans should act and then go and set another, even stricter set of rules for myself to live up to? Geeeze - sounds grueling! But is it really? Balance. Reality calls - I am human. Simple but not easy.

Practice makes progress not perfection.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts today.
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby Greywolf » Wed May 16, 2018 8:39 pm

avaneesh912 wrote:Tolle puts it in perspective what happens when we forgive:

Was he in AA?
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby avaneesh912 » Thu May 17, 2018 3:40 am

No. His intense suffering led him to a state of consciousness that was profound. I got more clarity on the working of 12 steps.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby Brock » Thu May 17, 2018 5:18 am

Was he in AA?

A writer of spiritual books which I also find extremely beneficial, the sort of person we are advised to look for in the chapter Into Action, where it says - “There are many helpful books also.”
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby Greywolf » Thu May 17, 2018 8:10 am

Greywolf wrote:
avaneesh912 wrote:Tolle puts it in perspective what happens when we forgive:

Was he in AA?

This was intended to be a "yes" or "no" question.
Last edited by Greywolf on Thu May 17, 2018 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby 1Peter5:10 » Thu May 17, 2018 8:53 am

Forgiveness is about forgiving wrongs done to us in the past.

I have a current problem that might shed some light on the matter.

At my primary job my immediate supervisor is behaving very badly regarding my schedule. I have requested certain weekly days off not one but TWO of my coworkers are willing to work that shift after 4 months of wrangling he finally approved. I used that day off to get a PT job elsewhere.

Well that was 2 months ago. The supervisor never instituted the change. My PT employer thinks I'm a liar, etc. etc. and now my supervisor (who apparently enjoys petty workplace politics) denies having ever approved the schedule change.

We got a manager involved. The managet says he will institute the change. . . two weeks hence.

Logically I have two choices:
Either
1. recognize that my supervisor is one of life's untrustworthy problem people,
Or
2. recognize that my supervisor is one of life's untrustworthy problem people, and let it upset me possibly acting out on my emotions in an unproductive fashion.

Obviously choice #1 is the better choice,
but it's hard because my ego is bruised and my natural inclination is to dwell on the wrong done to me and choose #2 instead.


Thank you for letting me vent.

PS added context: all across the store employees are complaining about getting their hours cut. With my sponsors advice and consent I am TRYING to get my hours cut, provided the cut comes in a predictable manner so I can add hours elsewhere.
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby Greywolf » Thu May 17, 2018 1:23 pm

1Peter5:10 wrote:Forgiveness is about forgiving wrongs done to us in the past.

I have a current problem that might shed some light on the matter.

At my primary job my immediate supervisor is behaving very badly regarding my schedule. I have requested certain weekly days off not one but TWO of my coworkers are willing to work that shift after 4 months of wrangling he finally approved. I used that day off to get a PT job elsewhere.

Well that was 2 months ago. The supervisor never instituted the change. My PT employer thinks I'm a liar, etc. etc. and now my supervisor (who apparently enjoys petty workplace politics) denies having ever approved the schedule change.

We got a manager involved. The managet says he will institute the change. . . two weeks hence.

Logically I have two choices:
Either
1. recognize that my supervisor is one of life's untrustworthy problem people,
Or
2. recognize that my supervisor is one of life's untrustworthy problem people, and let it upset me possibly acting out on my emotions in an unproductive fashion.

Obviously choice #1 is the better choice,
but it's hard because my ego is bruised and my natural inclination is to dwell on the wrong done to me and choose #2 instead.


Thank you for letting me vent.

PS added context: all across the store employees are complaining about getting their hours cut. With my sponsors advice and consent I am TRYING to get my hours cut, provided the cut comes in a predictable manner so I can add hours elsewhere.

Warning: The following comments are a non God-based solution to freedom from resentment and a subsequent ability to authentically forgive. Read at your own risk.

Resentments are 2nd stage reactions. First there is anger or upset then I declare myself "X's" victim. (Map this on to one of your resentments. In the example 1Peter gives there may be multiple resentments and he being a victim in all of them.) Next in the process of building a resentment we tack on that we will always be their victim. The ending for a true victim is the unspoken "and I will never tell them."

Said again, "First X commits a perpetration and I get angry about it, then after an appropriate amount of seething :oops: I declare myself to be "X's" victim. Plus I will always be X's victim and I will never tell X that.

Forgiveness sounds good and is the spiritually correct course of action. The problem for me is twofold. First my being a victim is not handled and secondly I can't seem to forgive without that unspoken tag line: "But don't you ever do it again."

I can see that if I am not someone's victim, there is no resentment. How does one do that? Declare oneself responsible. Like most things in life it's easier said than done. Notice it isn't a matter of looking to see if I'm responsible, but declaring it. One minute you are not married, the next minute you are. What happened? The minister, JOP, whoever, declared you man and wife.

A truck T-bones you at an intersection. How can you be responsible? Declaring it. I am responsible. I drove my car to that intersection and I am responsible for where my car is. It's called taking responsibility for my life. When I am responsible, I actually have an opportunity to authentically forgive someone for a perpetration.

Some will say, "That's not right. It's the truck drive's fault. He ran the red light." 'Of course you are right" but the object is to be free of resentment, not find fault.

Summarizing the freedom from resentment process, remove yourself from the role of being a victim. You won't have a true resentment if you aren't somebody or some entity's victim.

Cease being a victim is not as easy as it sounds. Some of us have a lifetime of practice. And being the victim is has become such a comfortable way of being.

I can hear it now. Bbbbut, that's not "turning it over like the 3rd Step says to do." Actually the step doesn't say turn it over, Step 3 reads, "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." The result promised in the steps is a spiritual awakening. Making a decision may be one of the factors that results in a Spiritual Awakening. Bbbbut Bill says..."thus and so." Okay. Bill changed his mind but he, Dr. Bob and the other successful alcoholics who aligned on the steps say, "Made a decision..."to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God..."

And so it is for the 4th and 4th steps -- steps that when taken in conjunction with the other 10 result in a spiritual awakening and constitute a program of recovery. Just follow the steps. There is no "right way" to do them different from the way they are written.

This was the way it was done for years by thousands and thousands of AAers who recovered before the Big Book was written, published and significant distribution occurred. And before history was reconstructed by re-titling the BB and by retroactively declaring it to be the basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous.

Step 6 reads, "Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character." Most new age AAers don't know that for many of the original 42 AAers who decided to write the BB -- and that may have included Bill W. himself when he did the step the first time but I doubt it -- that meant going over the first 5 Steps to be sure we weren't build our new life on a foundation of sand. It's in chapter 6, pretty well hidden but see if you can find it.

The 7th Step reads, "Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings." "God helps those that help themselves." I have no idea whose God this refers to but it isn't mine. The God of my understanding doesn't pass out homilies. It just a self-serving saying some folks use to promote their interpretation of how to take this step.

We leaned on alcohol and now some of us want to lean on God. God as I understand Him or Her wants us to stand on our own 2 feet and be responsible for our lives. And when we can do that, perhaps we might be better able to serve God's will for us and give us the power to carry that out.
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby 1Peter5:10 » Thu May 17, 2018 7:31 pm

Greywolf wrote:
1Peter5:10 wrote:.
.
.
Logically I have two choices:
Either
1. recognize that my supervisor is one of life's untrustworthy problem people,
Or
2. recognize that my supervisor is one of life's untrustworthy problem people, and let it upset me possibly acting out on my emotions in an unproductive fashion.

Obviously choice #1 is the better choice,
but it's hard because my ego is bruised and my natural inclination is to dwell on the wrong done to me and choose #2 instead.


.
.
.

.
.
.

We leaned on alcohol and now some of us want to lean on God. God as I understand Him or Her wants us to stand on our own 2 feet and be responsible for our lives. And when we can do that, perhaps we might be better able to serve God's will for us and give us the power to carry that out.


Thank you Greywolf.

My current thought is that there is nothing about forgiveness that requires I pretend an untrustworthy person is trustworthy.

But I also must not let this cause me to act poorly and must not dwell on it. Fix it and move on, or accept it and move on.

No sense holding onto a hot coal.
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Re: When we forgive:

Postby PaigeB » Fri May 18, 2018 11:30 am

Summarizing the freedom from resentment process, remove yourself from the role of being a victim. You won't have a true resentment if you aren't somebody or some entity's victim.

Cease being a victim is not as easy as it sounds. Some of us have a lifetime of practice. And being the victim is has become such a comfortable way of being.

YES!. This entire thread has been SO helpful to me where I am right now. I am Victimstancing.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
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