Hearing Gods Will

For recovery discussion

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby PaigeB » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:14 am

Edited
avaneesh912 wrote:
Brock said...we speak out against


Where, in our conference approved literature, are we directed or suggested to do this?

Please dont take a few words and add a comments. Take atleast the entire statement so people get a context of what the other person was trying to say. I think what Brock meant was we 3 part solution Steps, services and unity.


Let us Please actually talk about what is going on here.

So lets forget who they are and what they "meant" ? ...

So no - other folks can go back to the top of the page & read what was SAID and decide for themselves what was MEANT. Just define the word, AGAINST from american dictionary. Also Our Preamble States in part, "does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes."

I guess there is no amount of information that can humble those in AA (not just on this board, but everywhere) who know they are right about some idea or another. They refuse to listen to arguments with some sort of belligerent denial of the other person's ideas. If we don't agree with a certain God or a certain way to learn and work the Steps then the other person FEARS. They fear they will DIE if they didn't do it "right". Well, that is NOT what AA says.

Let's let E-aa go back to sharing a message of all inclusive and never exclusive.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
The e-AA Group's 7th Tradition link: www.e-aa.org/group_seventh.php
User avatar
PaigeB
Trusted Servant
 
Posts: 10395
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:28 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby Brock » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:19 pm

NO THANKS - let's actually talk about what is going on here. No more pussy footing around. We are talking about GOD.

We don't need to pussy foot around, it says - “That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God.”
If we don't agree with Brock's God he will DIE.

Nonsense, I have often on here encouraged newcomers, by reminding that the book says higher power, or your own concept of God.
I guess there is no amount of information that can humble those who refuse to listen to arguments with some sort of belligerent denial of the other person's ideas.

You get so upset, and don't read what people have said before making accusations like this, I fully support others to follow their own ideas, here are some of my words in this thread -”What I am pushing for is the idea to at least try to find the motive behind our thinking...As I have said, whatever works is fine..I keep saying whatever works go for it...our program depends on maintaining a fit spiritual condition, if some need meetings to do so then go ahead.” Denial of other person's ideas indeed!
What exactly will it take for you two to stop?

There is nothing to stop, this is a discussion forum, people will discuss different views, and as shown above, I have said if that's your way of doing things go ahead. But I have a right to discuss and even argue, that our program as it is written, says we get our strength and direction from a higher power, not from meetings.

As for us leaving and starting our own site, you are forgetting the warnings about trying to run the show, and our message is one of 'inclusivity,' you and others are the ones who will exclude those unable to attend meetings from finding happiness, we are saying they are included in AA's program, as it is written.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."
User avatar
Brock
Forums Coordinator
 
Posts: 3175
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby PaigeB » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:35 pm

PaigeB wrote:
we speak out against

Where, in our conference approved literature, are we directed or suggested to do this?

Then please answer the above^^^

For posterity, here is the full quote
Keep in mind that myself and some others here agree with this 100%, what we speak out against is those who make it look like the meetings are what keeps us happily sober, rather than the spiritual awakening, and these meeting makers make it types, far too often don't look very happily sober.

It does not sound like the 3 sides of the triangle to me.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
The e-AA Group's 7th Tradition link: www.e-aa.org/group_seventh.php
User avatar
PaigeB
Trusted Servant
 
Posts: 10395
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:28 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby PaigeB » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:46 pm

a controlling sponsor, or the need for constant meetings, since these are two things I speak out against.

You always say NEED meetings as if needing a meeting and a "controlling" sponsor are bad things.

Meetings are GOOD. We Should go to meetings. We should WANT to go to meetings.

Sponsors are GOOD generally and want to help. We Should have a sponsor. We should WANT a sponsor or trusted friend.

Just because I am having a bad day (can ya tell) and I want to go to a meeting where I can see my peeps and enjoy some laughs... or maybe get a friendly hand and an ear for my issue, does NOT mean I did not get relief from Prayer & Meditation... :) I have a god and no one person is it.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
The e-AA Group's 7th Tradition link: www.e-aa.org/group_seventh.php
User avatar
PaigeB
Trusted Servant
 
Posts: 10395
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:28 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby kdub720 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:55 pm

I like this thread. Comrodery and laughter is something we need daily. I always think about support, and who is around me at a meeting or not. I have always felt God is on my side. Yet have not always had supportive people in my life. The combination of the two keeps us going and I am thankful for all those whom I can lean on and greatful for the stories and Topics I see here. THanks.
kdub720
Forums Enthusiast
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:03 pm

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby PaigeB » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:25 pm

I fully support others to follow their own ideas, here are some of my words in this thread -”What I am pushing for is the idea to at least try to find the motive behind our thinking...As I have said, whatever works is fine..I keep saying whatever works go for it...our program depends on maintaining a fit spiritual condition, if some need meetings to do so then go ahead.” Denial of other person's ideas indeed!

So you support people who have the idea that they can go to as many meetings as they want or feel they need? You believe these people are spiritually well? If you say "No" to either of those questions you are in fact, denying another person the right of their own experience with the Steps.

I have said before there are many paths up the mountain of spiritual wellness and I NEVER said that people who cannot make it meetings cannot achieve a connection with their HP or experience the full benefit of the program. I know that you cannot always go and you fear that your path is lacking, but I assure you, it is not. Neither is the program lacking for the person who has a bad day or a long term life problem and feels the "need" to attend meetings.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
The e-AA Group's 7th Tradition link: www.e-aa.org/group_seventh.php
User avatar
PaigeB
Trusted Servant
 
Posts: 10395
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:28 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby Brock » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:55 pm

So you support people who have the idea that they can go to as many meetings as they want or feel they need? You believe these people are spiritually well?

From the start of this discussion I have said go to as many as you feel you need, I have also quoted the books over and over, to show that we are expected to develop our conscious contact. Because most of this discussion was about having to ask our sponsor if we were doing God's will, my main contention was that we are to learn what His will is without having to ask someone, I quoted things like this - “Nevertheless, we find that our thinking will, as time passes, be more and more on the plane of inspiration. We come to rely upon it.” These people are hopefully getting spiritually stronger, our literature is absolutely clear that the solution is spiritual strength, D'oh last week was saying that meetings was where he finds his, part of my reply was this, (with the underlining in place then) -
And I don't find much wrong with those who say that's where they find their strength, or stay tapped in, my problem is I feel those folks have a duty to tell newcomers, and particularly those they sponsor, that some others are able to lock into the power to the extent that meetings become optional, and in my experience they don't say that. So others like myself say it in meetings and on forums like these.

And I have said many times, why it is quite possible that new members are put off of AA, if they are given the impression of mandatory meetings for life, it happened to me, and I have helped and will continue to help others to see, that this is not necessarily so.

I am having trouble understanding the last paragraph, I hope you don't mean this the way it sounds - “I know that you cannot always go and you fear that your path is lacking, but I assure you, it is not.” I have been trying to show, that those who do not depend on meetings for support, moral, spiritual, or whatever, have to find this support elsewhere, they must, or they drink and usually die. They therefore find it as our literature suggests, mainly in step 11, so nobody should even think that these people fear their path is lacking. Quite the opposite, we are trying to tell those who substitute reliance on a higher power, for reliance on meetings, that we are sorry for them, because we are following a path as laid down in AA literature, and they may not be.

I also have nothing against those who feel the “need” to attend. However, when someone says something like 'I am Joe and I have been sober 10 years, I am happy to be here, I really needed a meeting tonight,' (and this sort of thing I have heard many times). What happens now, every newcomer in the room feels if Joe has been sober 10 years and really needed a meeting, meetings are what is keeping Joe sober, and this puts more work on those who then have to show the new people the truth of our program, (steps etc). And I hope those who “need” a meeting will at least wonder why some of us don't, except for enjoyment and passing the message, and realize that our “needs” are taken care of by something far more powerful than a meeting, and work towards harnessing that power for themselves.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."
User avatar
Brock
Forums Coordinator
 
Posts: 3175
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby PaigeB » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:27 pm

Perhaps we are getting somewhere...
I also have nothing against those who feel the “need” to attend. However, when someone says something like 'I am Joe and I have been sober 10 years, I am happy to be here, I really needed a meeting tonight,' (and this sort of thing I have heard many times). What happens now, every newcomer in the room feels if Joe has been sober 10 years and really needed a meeting, meetings are what is keeping Joe sober, and this puts more work on those who then have to show the new people the truth of our program, (steps etc). And I hope those who “need” a meeting will at least wonder why some of us don't, except for enjoyment and passing the message, and realize that our “needs” are taken care of by something far more powerful than a meeting, and work towards harnessing that power for themselves.

Maybe Joe just got fired from his job - he is 50 and, like a lot of alcoholics & regular folks, this is a trying time and an outlook on the future is scary & bleak.

I think that a newcomer NEEDS to see this. They need to see that we live normal lives and crap happens and we stay sober through it. We may hear from Joe again and again over the next few weeks or whatever about how he is actually practicing the program and how the friends he has made in AA have supported him. I ALSO think the newcomer help Joe because Joe still has a purpose in AA - maybe a Higher Purpose ~ one that you and I have no way of knowing.

I am coming up on 8 years of sobriety and there is no shame in really needing a meeting. I always hear what I need and I might even say something about my normal life and how I am living it with the help of my Higher Power to help Joe or Sue, who is getting a divorce after 15 years of sober marriage or Brandi who is new to AA.

We need to talk about the reality of the situation especially to the newcomer. We will have our ups and downs and we can stay sober with help - staying sober is first... how that occurred it is second. Going to meetings is not all that scary. Since I live in a place where there is many many meetings I do not have personal experience as to going without one. Why should I deny myself the warmth there? No need to answer that. But I can only tell them that is they feel they don't need meetings that I know a few people who have survived well without them. Online people mostly, but there is one gal I know of who did the steps and lives a normal life. I wouldn't tell them NOT to go to meetings and that they will be fine though. I do not warn them away from sponsorship because sponsorship has been so helpful to me. I have gotten great warmth and a calm voice and even some directions at times ~ even after completing the Steps... because real life is HARD. We have friends. No shame in asking for HELP from humans...

My HP is big enough to work with me in many ways - meetings are one of the main ways.

Prayer & meditation are a great way too.

There are many people with many ways - HP can take it and make it work... Have some faith. :)
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
The e-AA Group's 7th Tradition link: www.e-aa.org/group_seventh.php
User avatar
PaigeB
Trusted Servant
 
Posts: 10395
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:28 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby PaigeB » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:34 pm

I am having trouble understanding the last paragraph, I hope you don't mean this the way it sounds - “I know that you cannot always go and you fear that your path is lacking, but I assure you, it is not.”

I am sorry!

Rereading this it DOES sound bad... I meant "you" in the larger sense of the reader. And IF the reader feels their program is lacking I can assure them it is not lacking without meetings, as long as they have Contact.

My lack of a good read of my post.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
The e-AA Group's 7th Tradition link: www.e-aa.org/group_seventh.php
User avatar
PaigeB
Trusted Servant
 
Posts: 10395
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:28 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby ezdzit247 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:37 pm

How, by our Own Judgements, do we tell Our Will from a Higher Power's? Or worse "Not justify Our Will as a HP's?"


Good question, especially for alcoholics seeking to recover, because self-delusion, egotism, etc is such a big part of our disease.

There's an excellent article on this subject (Google for link) based on a 2009 research study from the University of Chicago:

"U.S. researchers conclude that on important (and controversial) matters, people project their own beliefs on those attributed to God...."

"Intuiting God's beliefs on important issues may not produce an independent guide, but may instead serve as an echo chamber to validate and justify one's own beliefs...."



One of the most interesting aspects of the study is that none of the subjects had any awareness of the coincidence between what they believed and what their "gods" believed.....
“To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children...to leave the world a better place...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.” -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
User avatar
ezdzit247
Forums Old Timer
 
Posts: 2077
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:38 pm
Location: California

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby D'oh » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:36 pm

It talks about "Bigshotism" in the 12 and 12. Which I know I suffered from while drinking, and in Sobriety. (although not as bad)

You see, when I slipped, I forgot that Sobriety is a Gift. A gift that I have to ask for Daily, that I get to use anyway I believe my Higher Power would have me use it. But I don't Own It.

Meditation, worked for sometime, Meetings started to become a Time Taker, more that a Spiritual Alighting. Not necessarily answers, but more often help with Self Pity and Resentments. I am not the only person that deals with life daily.
D'oh
Forums Long Timer
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:51 am

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby avaneesh912 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:04 am

it talks about "Bigshotism" in the 12 and 12. Which I know I suffered from while drinking, and in Sobriety. (although not as bad)


So, if we sincerely share what we did outside of meetings, its Bigshotism? Maybe you do need to go to more meetings! LOL.

You see, when I slipped, I forgot that Sobriety is a Gift.


People relapse, because of un-treated alcoholism. One of the speakers illustrates this real well. People pick up resentments or some form of fear and miss a meeting here and there. Slowly pile up more resentments. Don't look inside. And boom, they hit the blind spot. Exactly what happened to Jim the car salesman. Suddenly people justify that they need to have a drink. They don't think through. All that we learned/heard in the meetings, those cliches, one at a t time crap, think through the drink, none of them come to the mind. The MIND is at that point is focused on 1 thing, THE EFFECT. And they take the drink and off to the races.

And then here is a phenomenon I noticed, if they get lucky and come back, they go to a different group (usually) of-course if they are in a small town they have to go to the same nest. And here is one thing I notice, Every share, they have to talk about the term they had before they relapsed. I think they torture themselves so much because they assume they had a choice in that relapse, when they didn't. They lost the choice when they didnt do the necessary work.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
User avatar
avaneesh912
Trusted Servant
 
Posts: 4646
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 12:22 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby kdub720 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:28 am

Wow. What a great post above. The idea of torturing your self for a re-lapse as if you had a choice is great. As recovering alcoholics we must remember that we are human and do make mistakes. What brings us together is the desire not to drink and the will do better our lives. I love these posts about forgiveness and grace. It truly is a battle and we will stumble and fall, or else it would be easy. I pray everyday that I can make wise decisions, yet it is empowering when you all share stories of the struggle and how you over come them. Thanks for the ongoing Post This is a good one.
kdub720
Forums Enthusiast
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:03 pm

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby Eltrym » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:34 am

I really enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you for sharing all your thoughts on this matter.
Eltrym
Forums Enthusiast
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:27 pm

Re: Hearing Gods Will

Postby D'oh » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:27 am

They lost the choice when they didnt do the necessary work.


This is Very True! Thanks. But what is Necessary Work?

For some, just asking for help in the morning, and giving thanks at night. For others 7 meetings a week for life. Everyone is different.

I Must ask for help Daily, if for no other reason than a reminder that I no longer run the show. I also need a min. of 2 Meetings a week, maybe more (I can spare the hour) for many inspirational thoughts, and occasionally to be reminded that I am only 1 drink away from the Newcomer shaking, Deer in the Headlight look that is in the corner talking to No one.
D'oh
Forums Long Timer
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:51 am

PreviousNext

Return to Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests