Bad confrontation

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Bad confrontation

Postby michmjon » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:43 pm

Opinions please... Back in late 2015 I was fired from my job (not alcohol related) and soon found myself unable to find work. I got bored, depressed, and fed up and started to hit the bottle. I was soon on a pint of vodka a day binge that by December went to a quart a day and things really started to go downhill fast. I was blacking out, and going into rages of anger, not even knowing what I did during these blackouts. By March, my partner had it with me. He was sick of my behavior and told me to stop drinking or else he would leave me. I stopped for a week, then picked up right where I left off but this time hiding my drinking, always having a bottle stashed away somewhere in the house. My partner soon found a bottle and confronted me again, saying if I did not stop right away that was it. I tried, failed and tried again and by May I had it with myself and knew I had to get help and fast. So I went to my first AA Meeting. I listened to the stories of the other people there- it was a small group, only about 10 people present. I was asked if I wanted to talk and initially said no, but then I totally broke down and told my story. After the meeting an older gentleman approached me and gave me a list of phone numbers and said he was there to help and that I could call him at any time. So, I started the 90 meetings in 90 days routine, and things were going fine. But I was getting bored with the meetings. There were people there who were just downright depressing me with their stories and it was the same small group every day. I was feeling that I really didn't fit in this group. It was mostly people much older than me with whom, other than alcoholism I had little in common with. There were a couple people in the group that I could tell just didn't like me at all, as I had come out to the group after 30 days and told them I am Gay.

I wasn't drinking- that was the main thing. My partner saw me do a 100% turn-around and started to be very supportive of me. However, he insisted I keep attending meetings. I agreed with him- the program was working, even though I wasn't really enjoying the meetings at all. After the 90 days was up, I made the decision to stop attending the particular meeting I was going to, as I wasn't getting a thing out of it. So, I started to attend noon meetings. The room was always packed- upwards of 30 people- so the meetings always went long, but the change was good. For a short time.... Soon it was the "same old same old." Hearing the same stories repeated over and over and on top of that, this group had more than its share of "holy rollers"- devote Christians who would insist that Jesus was the only way to recovery. I am NOT a Christian, having left the church long ago after experiencing nothing but hate and derision because of my sexual orientation. But, things were going okay and I still had no desire to drink. One of the Christian gentlemen confronted me after one of the meetings asking me if I was following the steps and if I had a sponsor yet. I answered "sort of" and told him that my brother-in-law, 25 years sober, was helping me, although he refused to sponsor me or anyone else for that matter as he felt that if someone was going to ruin their life and return to the bottle that this was their decision and there was probably nothing he could do to stop them other than warn them of the path they were going down. As for the steps, I told him I wasn't really adhering to them strictly but I figured why should I as I had no desire to drink and to return to that awful person I was when I did drink.

He gave me an angry look and started in on me, saying I HAD to get a sponsor and I HAD to follow the steps otherwise I would fail, even accusing me of being a "dry drunk" because I was not following the program. Then he started in on me about Jesus and how that was my only hope. I started to get mad and reminded him that this was a group that endorsed no religion and was open to all that had the desire to stop drinking. I told him about my sexuality and that I had no desire to join a Church that refused to accept me for who I was. He walked away in a huff and I went home. The next day I decided I needed a break so I skipped my first meeting ever- the same the next day and the next. By then I had my four month coin in my wallet and absolutely no desire to drink so I felt this was okay. On Friday I returned to a meeting. When I walked in, a lady who had always been real friendly to me and who I chatted with regularly about this and that was sitting at the table. I took the seat next to her and she gave me a sideways glance and didn't say a word. I asked her if something was wrong. She just got up and moved and proceeded to give me "the evil eye" the entire meeting. I passed on saying anything that day- the topic was VERY Christian in nature so i just sat and listened, hearing the few good words of encouragement from others and a few new stories that further convinced me that I could never pick up a bottle again. The meeting ended and as I walked out the door, I passed by an older gentleman. What happened next blew me away. As I walked by him he muttered "f'ing faggot" under his breath. I was shocked. Apparently, the gentleman from a couple days earlier had outed me to this group- something I felt better if I did not do as I did with the smaller group I had previously been a member of. I turned followed that gentleman out to the parking lot and calmly gave him a piece of my mind, saying he had no business blabbing to everyone something I had told him confidentially. That was that, and I decided to stop attending that group and go back to the smaller group where I had a few people who understood me and what was going on in my life and accepted me for who I was. And things went fine- I was welcomed back into that group. There were still the few people in there who I just felt didn't like me, but hey- that was their problem and I was always very cordial with them. I started to attend meetings daily again, but decided to take at least weekends off. My partner was fine with that.

Well, three weeks ago with the holidays approaching things started to get hectic around the house, with family coming over, holiday preparations and all that so I decided that I needed to take care of my personal business and take some time off from AA. Still no desire whatsoever to drink, feeling good about myself, life totally turned around-so my partner was fine with my decision. Yesterday morning I had nothing on my calendar, was feeling a little bored so I went to my first meeting in three weeks. The second I walked in the door one of the older gentlemen asked where I had been. I told him I just decided I needed a few weeks off. He looked at me and said "You really shouldn't do that you know - even when you feel like you don't need to attend a meeting and don't come that's slipping down the slippery slope back to the bottle. I just smiled and said, "Well, that's your opinion and all that really matters is that I have stopped drinking and that I have non desire ever to drink again. He just looked at me and said, "Your wrong about that you know. I know you don't have a real sponsor and that you haven't been following the steps. You need to put on your big-boy pants and do the right thing." My reply was "Well, that's your opinion and you know the AA line about opinions- they're like assholes. Everyone has one and no one thinks theirs stinks." He just let out a huff and that was that and the meeting went on.

This morning I returned and when I walked in three of the regular gentlemen were there talking amongst themselves. When they saw me come in, one of them said "We gotta talk about your attitude." The three of them stood, walked over to my seat and started in hard on me, screaming at me that I was doomed to fail if I didn't follow the steps and get a sponsor. One threw in the Jesus thing at me again and started to tell me that without a higher power to turn to in order to cure my disease I would get nowhere and just return to the bottle and eventually kill myself. And when I say screaming at me I mean SCREAMING at me. I shouted "Hold it right there!" and reminded them that the sole purpose of AA was to stop drinking and that the steps are SUGGESTED and not REQUIRED, and reminded them that I had a "quasi-sponsor" in my brother in law. I said in calmly and quietly. I told them that I had not touched alcohol in six months and had no desire whatsoever to drink and that it was MY decision and MY decision alone if I wanted to attend meetings every day or not. Boom. The gentleman who initiated this "intervention" blew up in my face- getting inches away from me, screaming and actually spitting in my face as he yelled, calling me nothing but a "f'ing dry drunk and a total idiot for not following the program. That did it- I shouted "WHAT THE F IS THIS, A F'ING CULT?" and stormed out the door. On my way out I heard that word again as one of the gentlemen muttered "God Damn Faggot- he's gonna fail." I spun around and gave all of them the single digit salute.

I got home and immediately called my brother-in-law and told him what had happened. He just laughed and said "Sounds like you got yourself in with the hardliner old school assholes" then told me something that I did not know- he had not attended a meeting in five years and like me, had no desire to drink or ever drink again. He suggested I might try a different meeting hall altogether. There's a problem with that, however. The nearest other group is in a town 15 miles away and due to a medical condition I am on disability and was told by men doctor not to drive more than five miles from home at the furthest (I was diagnosed with permanent damage to the sleep center of my brain from a condition that went undiagnosed for years, not alcohol-related. I have narcolepsy because of that- something that caused me to suddenly fall asleep in more than a few long meetings.) So there I stand. At this point I feel that more meetings would be beneficial to me in a small way- just getting things off my chest occasionally helps me maintain. I really have no desire whatsoever to drink ever again.

I thank you for reading this long diatribe and look forward to any opinion given.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby Noels » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:25 pm

Hi Mich and welcome to e-aa :D

Pfew that's quite an experience you've had but it seems you managed well :) You could receive a couple of different opinions / suggestions since we're all beautifully unique individuals but know that each opinion / suggestion is made with love.
I agree nobody have a right to push God down your throat or to predict that you will fail unless you follow the 12 step program as nobody but you know what path you have chosen to experience. I would however try to view their actions with a bit of kindness as they could have reacted in that manner because they themselves have found that without a belief in some kind of Higher Power and actually working the 12 step program they have failed many times before and have possibly seen others fail many times before? Their method in bringing this to your attention was harsh though but something we do learn in AA is that we can not control what others say or do but we can control how we react to it. Your initial reaction - standing up for yourself as far as I am concerned is as it should have been at that moment but now you are in the predicament of not having a meeting to go to. Coming here for some input was a very good thing (that's what I would call our " pause " moment) as you now have a chance to make another decision bearing in mind what I mentioned above.

When I was new at AA some of my thinking and behavior was very much different to what it is now. However, from day 1 I knew subconsciously that I had to concentrate only on myself and take as much from the sober members as I possibly could. Oh there were times that I disagreed so much with what was said - I remember 1 time in particular where I really lost myself. We were called for a group conscience meeting on some subject. It turned out, however, that we were not there to be a part of the meeting but were just there to listen to the rules and laws already decided on by the chairperson. Sole decision. In that meeting I waited until he looked straight at me, I lifted my arm high enough for him to see and gave him a middle finger. Thereafter I got up and left. I was six months sober just like you.

After that I didn't attend a meeting at group until my first celebration. As a matter of fact, I didn't really attend meetings at any groups. I searched for a month or so for a new group to make my home but those meetings were pretty lame compared to my ex-home group, the fellowship wasn't there, I wasn't comfortable so I stopped going to meetings and continued step work and spiritual growth on my own with the help and chats from the members on this site. However, working the program and with all the internal digging I realized that although some of the chairperson's actions (at my ex-home group) was not liked by me, he knew his AA stuff better than anyone else ive come across and was always ready to help to ensure my sobriety. He actually came to our home one night although he was already in bed, sick with cancer and unbeknown to me had no transport as his vehicle was in for a service. Yet, despite all of that he made a plan because I needed him. He really cared and went above and beyond to assist me with my sobriety. That type of person in today's life is worth more than gold. I acknowledged my share in it and although I no longer needed him for answers, guidance or help i went back to that group for my first year's anniversary.

Boy was I surprised! Changes, changes, changes . For the better. So, although i don't need meetings regularly i am planning to, this year, attend meetings more often at this group again. My choice.

So bottom line - i would say go back to the group where you felt more comfortable although it could be boring at times. If this is the group where you had problems just concentrate on your actions and reactions. You are not there to be everyone's bestie. You are there to take what you need and to learn from the more experienced recovering alcoholics how to live life on life terms which you will understand more about if you do decide to work the 12 step program. Also get involved - See if the group is open to getting speakers from other groups now and then or if they are amenable to having subject discussions (Round-Robins we call it in RSA) or where changes can be made to keep the meetings interesting and fresh?

It is really important for you to consider working the 12 step program as AA's recovery method is based on this program. Also remember what we say at at the end of a meeting - it works if you work it so work it you're worth it!

Good luck and thank you once again for sharing,

lotsa love and light
Noels xxx
Last edited by Noels on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby Brock » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:29 pm

Welcome to e-AA michmjon. Yours may be a long post, but explains very well the position you find yourself in, and the attitude of some old timers in AA meetings.

Certainly shouting at someone, and putting a name like 'Jesus' to a higher power, is not in keeping with our program. However, wrong approach aside, I believe they were absolutely right about the message they were trying to drum into you. It says in step 12, having had a spiritual awaking as the result of these steps, it is unambiguous, for the alcoholic this is necessary.

Our big book goes to the trouble of detailing in the first 164 pages, the experience of a few who tried to do otherwise. Like the car salesman who put the booze in his milk, and the accountant who after finishing his business successfully reported in his story, 'it was the end of a perfect day, not a cloud on the horizon,' then he gets drunk. These things are there as reminders, and over and over the book says 'we are without defense against the first drink,' that defense must come from a power greater than ourselves.

Many of us here, myself included, have done what you are doing, I didn't feel to drink, and thought what's the big deal about these steps and higher power, and twice I went back to drink when I least expected I would. Finally being admitted against my will to a sanatorium, after which I accepted the program with open arms and happy as hell I did. AA is not just about stopping drinking, it's more about correcting the things in our lives which led us to drink. And what happens is a brand new life without drink, a better life than we ever knew.

Yes some meetings are boring, and we do hear the same story over and over, another reason to do the work, because when you do your sobriety is no longer tied to how many meetings you attend. I can make no excuses for the bad mouthing of your sexual choices, some older people like me aren't quite as open to accepting these things as the younger generation is, but the very organization of AA has as one of it's motto's “live and let live,” we do not judge others in AA, and these fellows have no excuse for doing so.

Give some thought to those steps, they are not half as difficult as they appear on paper, then you will be a free man, best of luck for 2017.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby Blue Moon » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:20 pm

AA's own basic text suggests not to waste our time with those who don't want to work with us, we may spoil a later opportunity.

So these are morons who claim to have taken the steps, yet have utterly failed to grasp the fundamentals.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby avaneesh912 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:50 pm

My suggestion will be to get well with your BILs sponsorship and start your own group. Looks like your place could use one.

Show those ignorant knuckle heads this line:

My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?"


This was Ebbys suggestion to Bill W and that idea propelled this fellowship.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby michmjon » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:18 pm

Blue Moon- my feelings exactly. Thinking over what happened this morning, these "morons" did not care one bit about me, my past or my future. All they care about is strict adherence to the Big Book. AA, for me, was and is there for one purpose only and that purpose is clearly stated at the beginning of each meeting- to stop drinking. All else in the program is SUGGESTED. There are no requirements that I have ever seen other than having the desire to stop drinking. I did read the Big Book all the way through during my first couple weeks in the program- but I also looked up what others had to say about the program and about the history of the program. I recall one meeting where Dr. Bob and Bill came up in that day's topics. When it came my turn to speak I brought up what I had read about the history of Bill and Dr. Bob in the program- how the term "13th Step" came into being because of Bill's treatment of of women in the program- he was a dirty old man, no other way to put it- and he had to have handlers watching him like a hawk to keep him away from women. I read how Bill and Dr. Bob were totally unable to get their lives in order and to hold and keep jobs and how they lived out the rest of their lives receiving handouts from fellow AA members. One of the regulars interrupted me mid-sentence and started to dig in to me, refuting what I said and telling me these were all LIES, LIES, LIES (as she put it) and that these were great men and that we simply "do not speak evil" against either one of them. After she spoke her mind I said "Hold on a minute here" and went on to say that I was fully aware of what these men had done and that I was just pointing out that we all have our flaws, none of us are perfect and as stated in the readings perfect adherence to the program is neither expected nor required- the only thing that is important is to know that alcohol destroyed our lives as we knew them and AA gives us all a chance to get our lives back in better order. I stated in my original post that I had questioned the men who confronted me before I walked out with the statement "What is this? A cult?"

In my humble opinion, these "hardline old school a-holes" want to make the program a cult. Do NOT question the founders- they are saints. You must change your thinking to that of the group. You can't hang out with your friends anymore- they will lie to you and pull you back into the abyss (yes, in a meeting just before Labor Day one of the old hardliners told me that in under no circumstances was I to go over to the family picnic because my family are all drinkers). You must follow the steps and turn yourself COMPLETELY over to the program and forget your old life. Thinking outside the guidelines of the program is "stinking thinking." You are a "dry drunk" if you do not get a sponsor and follow the steps IN ORDER under the guidance of the sponsor. I was told all these things at one time or another- and I am sorry. THAT IS A CULT. And that is not what the program is all about. The program is about not picking up a drink and remaining sober. No more, no less. There is one gentleman in the larger noon group that I stopped attending- 40 years sober. Never had a sponsor, never followed the steps. Now YOU TELL ME- is this man a failure? A stinking thinker? A dry drunk? ("Dry Drunk," in my opinion, is the STUPIDEST concept I have ever heard of.) In the short seven months I've been in the program I have met people that went through all the steps, had multiple sponsors then one fine night decided to pick up the bottle again for whatever reason, hit rock bottom again and started the program all over- and some multiple times. It has been estimated by the powers that be and run the numbers that FAR more people quit drinking on their own than do through AA- estimates are that less than 2% of those who open those doors and start attending AA never take another drink in their life.

Look, until last year when I lost my job I was one of those guys who could have one drink and was fine with that. I enjoyed my beer and, yes, I drank three or four a day. I never drove drunk a single day in my life (a good friend of mine in high school was killed by a drunk driver). I never went to work drunk, I never drank alone. It wasn't until I lost my job, my health problems mounted and depression took hold of me that I went in to my one and only bender. And that bender lasted 9 months. By the end I knew I had a problem and I knew I had to do something about it, so I turned to AA. And it worked. I stopped drinking and now know I can never pick up another drink in my life. And I plan on keeping that promise I made to myself the first day I entered the program. And how do I do it?

One Day At A Time.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby michmjon » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:33 pm

aveenish912- Actually, at one time I considered approaching the board of the Alano group I go to to suggest starting a new LGBT group. I still may do so- however most the board is made up of the hardliner old school boys and it would be a difficult time convincing them that this is a needed group.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby positrac » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:00 am

michmjon wrote:aveenish912- Actually, at one time I considered approaching the board of the Alano group I go to to suggest starting a new LGBT group. I still may do so- however most the board is made up of the hardliner old school boys and it would be a difficult time convincing them that this is a needed group.

Who says Alano has to have a total say in that idea anyways? Where more than one meets constitutes as meeting and I know because I met this way many times over they years. This can be at someone's home in the community and if they are following the 12 steps and 12 traditions and success is being had then do it.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby Noels » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:20 am

read how Bill and Dr. Bob were totally unable to get their lives in order and to hold and keep jobs and how they lived out the rest of their lives receiving handouts from fellow AA members

Sjoh hon where did you read that? ? This doesn't seem correct to me?

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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby Brock » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:25 am

...he was a dirty old man, no other way to put it- and he had to have handlers watching him like a hawk to keep him away from women. I read how Bill and Dr. Bob were totally unable to get their lives in order and to hold and keep jobs and how they lived out the rest of their lives receiving handouts from fellow AA members.

We have so called historians abundant in AA, and yes I have read one or two reports like those, but I looked at the source and what else they were saying, and found that they were anti AA propaganda pushed by anti AA web sites. These men were not perfect and actually say in the book “we are not saints,” so none of us would feel less of ourselves if we stumble now and then. I prefer to read the good things rather than research dirt, and for each piece of dirt I also find other sterling contributions that has saved countless lives, they don't ask dirty old men to grace the cover of Time magazine three times, and still he turned it down for anonymity’s sake, finally appearing after his death.
There is one gentleman in the larger noon group that I stopped attending- 40 years sober. Never had a sponsor, never followed the steps. Now YOU TELL ME- is this man a failure? A stinking thinker? A dry drunk?

I can't tell you that, but I can tell you he is not an alcoholic of the type our book describes, he is something like this from chapter 2 -
Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention.

And he will likely cause others who are real alcoholics much pain, because they will believe what worked for him will work for them.
FAR more people quit drinking on their own than do through AA- estimates are that less than 2% …

Those are also not the alcoholic the book describes, and be careful with your less than 2% crap, once more from a site that wishes to put our program down. AA does it's own survey via the groups under the ambit of the GSO, and while I would be the first to admit that recovery rates have fallen, I am also the first to try and suggest why, and ask myself what can I do to help them improve.
The program is about not picking up a drink and remaining sober. No more, no less.

Rubbish! I said in my previous post - “AA is not just about stopping drinking, it's more about correcting the things in our lives which led us to drink.” I also said in my post, that I felt sorry that these old fellows had roughed you up the way they did, and while there is no excuse for sexist slurs, I see now that if you expect to speak as a newcomer about dirty old men and less than 2%, then they were fairly patient with you, I am thousands of miles away, and yet even my patience is being tested.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby avaneesh912 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:46 am

the only thing that is important is to know that alcohol destroyed our lives as we knew them and AA gives us all a chance to get our lives back in better order.


True. But we also need to remember, just knowledge alone will not fix it. As it is illustrated in Bills Story, Stories in More about Alcoholism. The peculiar mental twist will trick us back into that first drink. Hence the pioneers worked the steps quickly and got on the business of helping others while working on themselves.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby michmjon » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:50 am

First, let me say that I am not attacking AA in my posts. I am just pointing out observations I have made. In regards to what I have read about AA from sources either outside the program or those who have left the program for various reasons, I take all I read with a grain of salt. I consider the source, if what they say is valid and true and the documentation they cite to back up any of their claims. One of the first things I discovered upon reading the Big Book and other works about AA, is that a lot of the ideas in the Big Book are outdated and totally disregard many scientific studies on alcoholism. There is a certain arrogance in AA that it is the only path to follow to sobriety. Is this a bad thing? It may be, it may not be. The Big Book is in DRASTIC need of a total re-write and needs to bring the science of addiction into play. To disregard science in the name of spirituality and faith is utter nonsense.

Also- If AA is to truly follow its claim of not being tied to any sect, denomination, organization or institution serious reconsideration must be made to remove any reference to any specific religion. THIS IS MY OPINION. Even the AA hardliners in the groups I attended had no qualms about stating that AA is and always was a Christian-based program. It was patterned after The Oxford Group- a Christian organization. Dr. Bob stated himself:

"It wasn’t until 1938 that the teachings and efforts and stories that had been going on were crystallized in the form of the Twelve Steps. I didn’t write the Twelve Steps. I had nothing to do with the writing of them. . . We already had the basic ideas, though not in terse and tangible form. We got them, as I said, as a result of our study of the Good Book [i.e., the Bible]."

Every meeting I attended ended with the Lord's Prayer. At first I joined hands with everyone and stood silently as they recited the prayer. But I felt very uncomfortable doing this. So after a couple weeks, when everyone stood to recite the prayer, I would excuse myself and leave the meeting. I caught a lot of flack for this. This is a spiritual program- no doubt about that. But spirituality need not be tied to religion. My "Higher Power" is the camaraderie present in the group- the telling of stories, the sharing of ideas. I stated this in meetings and was subject to the judgement of the Christians in the group because of this. There were a few members who stated I was 100% correct that a "Higher Power" need not be a god- but for the most part I found myself being regularly criticized for not believing that only turning myself over to God and accepting "His Will" was the only path to recovery. In my humble opinion, Atheism is simply not an option for the groups with whom I joined.

With that said, this is all I will add to this post. However, I will read and consider any further posts made by others. I will continue to attend meetings, but just not every day. And I will continue to follow a path that I feel is WORKING for me.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby Layne » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:42 am

I wonder if people on the Titanic made their choices of life boats based on whether or not the life boats were Christian, had womanizers in them ,or had people in them that couldn't hold jobs...?

When I first encountered AA, I saw many things "wrong". I saw people that I could never get along with and had nothing in common with. I really had a thing about the overuse of the word ''God". I this, I that... I etc. The more I looked for problems, the more I found them. Not surprising.

Because I was so busy looking for problems, the solution was overlooked and completely ignored. For some reason, I couldn't stay sober either. Go figure.

Finally I received the gift of total desperation. I was on the deck of the Titanic. Judgements and or criteria for my choice of lifeboat, totally dissipated and disappeared. The one right in front of me was designed and perfectly equipped to fulfill it's job of carrying me to safety, even if it was not engineered to my exact specs.

I am not good at multitasking. I can't look for problems and and solutions at the same time. I find what I look for.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby Blue Moon » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:08 pm

michmjon wrote:All they care about is strict adherence to the Big Book.


Indeed. Yet the fact that they can't even get this bit right is really rather funny.

estimates are that less than 2% of those who open those doors and start attending AA never take another drink in their life.


We can debate statistics indefinitely. But I concluded 15 years ago that this 2% figure is 100% wrong.

1. AA keeps no record of attendance, and does no follow-up. None. Zilch.
2. AA's own "member count" is questioned by AA members themselves. There's no count of AA members, only AA groups. Then they apply a weighted average based on the number of groups to guesstimate the member count.
3. AA runs 0 detox units, so many folks who walk in are at different stages in the detox process, therefore need different degrees of medical assistance outside AA to get physically detoxed.
4. Many in AA come in, leave and drink, then come back and get sober.
5. Many sober up in AA, then leave sober.
6. Some sober up in AA, stay sober for many years, then quit doing what they need to do and drink again.
7. AA is full - full - of people who seem to hold onto the belief that the program is "just don't drink and go to meetings" despite it being a 12-Step program (no Step of which mentions either "don't drink" or "go to meetings" anywhere).
8. Nobody counts the numbers of people who have taken the 12 Steps, recovered, and continue to apply them. If they did, the "success" statistic would be roughly 98% higher.

For me personally, there's only 1 statistic that really matters: 100% success so far. Yet I drank since my first meeting, over 15 years ago, so I presumably would not even be in that 2%. So it really is meaningless.
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Re: Bad confrontation

Postby Lali » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:46 pm

The way you have been treated is totally unacceptable!!

That said, they are right about the importance of the steps. Those who don't do the steps and then live by those principals are doomed to either a life of white knuckling (dry drunk) or repeated relapses. With time and careful observation of people in the rooms, you will see that this is true. Unfortunately, the delivery these guys use to pass that on probably has the opposite effect on people.

I like the idea of you starting a new group. There are probably a lot of people who feel as you do about the existing groups in your area who would attend your meetings.

Good luck to you1
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