Dual diagnosis?

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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby ezdzit247 » Mon May 08, 2017 2:52 pm

Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.


The idea that Bill W. expressed in this part of the BB regarding "men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" refers to narcissists. This idea, expressed without an identifying label, most likely came from Bill's communications with Carl Jung and dozens of other psychologists, psychiatrists, and physicians he asked to critique the BB before it was published. It is Carl Jung who is credited with pioneering the study of "narcissism" as a character disorder. He is also credited with having set the course for what today is known as Alcoholics Anonymous. Erich Fromm's later work on the study of narcissism identified "malignant narcissism" as incurable. Scott Peck's 1983 book, "The People of the Lie", like Fromm, identifies malignant narcissism as the root of all human evil. It is this type of narcissist who is "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" and is "naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty." While the jury is still out on whether the cause of this condition is nature or nurture, I agree with Bill's opinion, i.e. "They seem to have been born that way."


i think this is probably the most misunderstood little part of the big book. it has absolutely nothing to do with mental and emotional disorders.

this is referring to people with an IQ so low, they cant understand what honesty is. they cant understand why their actions, or the actions of others, aren't right.usually cant read or write,too.

naturally,constitutionally incapable because they were born that way and not at fault- they didn't ask to be born that way.
they have no way of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty because they don't have the mental capacity.


There is absolutely no correlation between I.Q. and character. People with low I.Q.'s are just as likely to have high principles and good character as people with high I.Q's are to have low principles and bad character.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby D'oh » Mon May 08, 2017 3:58 pm

The idea that Bill W. expressed in this part of the BB regarding "men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" refers to narcissists. This idea, expressed without an identifying label, most likely came from Bill's communications with Carl Jung and dozens of other psychologists, psychiatrists, and physicians he asked to critique the BB before it was published.


Honesty
Open mindedness
Willingness.

Sounds like a pretty clear cut case of
“Don’t see anything the matter here, Ma. Ain’t it grand the wind stopped blowin’?”
An entire paragraph on Narcissists? Well I guess it could be. I am a Car Salesman, and I am included, but what about a Plumber?

Alcoholism, is a Mental, Spiritual, and Physical Illness. I have said Many Times, "If there were a cure, and I would Never take another Drink with this cure. I would be, at best in a Rubber Room, within a year.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby Brock » Mon May 08, 2017 5:25 pm

In speaking about Carl Jung and his pioneering of understanding narcissism EZ boldly declares -
He is also credited with having set the course for what today is known as Alcoholics Anonymous.

I don't want to get into this too deeply, it seems to be departing from the topic and question which interests a particular newcomer, and as I remember, some members were roundly criticized by the same writer, for doing this in another thread. But to say Jung is credited with setting the course in AA's development is ridiculous.

Bill thanked him in his second letter by saying his views had an impact on some of the early members, and this refers to those struggling with the God concept. All the rest were off with Bill listening to preachers like Emmet Fox, and Rev Sam Shoemaker, whom Bill credited with being the greatest influence in the founding.

It's late and there's a TV show I want to watch, but given a little time I could find evidence that Jung told Roland Hazard about the Oxford group, saying that he had heard they were having success using spirituality. Credit the Oxfords and others with charting the course for AA, not Jung.

As for the rest, Erich Fromm's work and pulling names out of a hat, it all looks impressive quoting this one and that, but in truth is nothing more than copying and pasting a couple of Google searches.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby ezdzit247 » Mon May 08, 2017 5:32 pm

D'oh wrote:
Honesty
Open mindedness
Willingness.

Sounds like a pretty clear cut case of
“Don’t see anything the matter here, Ma. Ain’t it grand the wind stopped blowin’?”


???


D'oh wrote: An entire paragraph on Narcissists? Well I guess it could be. I am a Car Salesman, and I am included, but what about a Plumber?.....


You think a paragraph is too much?

I'm generally not a big fan of broad sweeping generalizations, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming that all practicing alcoholics are narcissists, i.e. selfish, self-centered, etc.--and this character flaw doesn't disappear or go away all by itself just because we get suddenly get sober. AA's holistic approach to recovery on all levels--physical, emotional, mental, spiritual--works if we work it.

There's a huge difference between garden variety narcissism, which everyone has to some degree, and the pathological narcissism described by Jung, Fromm, & Peck which Bill refers to in describing people who don't "get it" because they are constitutionally incapable of honesty and naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. If you or anyone else is concerned about how narcissistic you are, there's several on line sites which offer free personality tests similar to the Jung, Briggs-Meyers personality tests and you can find out in a matter of minutes.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby D'oh » Mon May 08, 2017 8:42 pm

Credit the Oxfords and others with charting the course for AA, not Jung.


I do credit the Oxford Group for a lot of the Big Book, and the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous. I don't Study the Oxford Group to Practice my Program. Part of my way of "Keep it Simple" The answers I need are in the Big Book.

Early in my recovery, my Sponsor told me to read 83-86 at night and 86-88 On Awakening. I have restarted his routine with the Daily Reflection, and it has helped Again.

I am not saying anyway is the right way. One person I know in the program would just ask his Higher Power for the day's sobriety, and Thank Him at bed time. He had a Great Presence and a Very Humble Program.

I tend to "Over Analyze" life, while I am doing that, I fail to "Utilize the Gift of Sober Life"
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby Squarelymet » Tue May 09, 2017 5:54 am

I am one of those. I am in very dark place since February. I stopped going to the meetings because I could not relate and hurt too much. Isolating, barely going to work, bed ridden, but no thought of drinking. It hurts too much. I was suicidal. I am sober 9 years, have a sponsor, 2 sponsees and working on the steps when this episode happened. I am overwhelmed and full of fear. Meds are not working, but afraid to change again. Help. Please.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby tomsteve » Tue May 09, 2017 5:59 am

we can agree to disagree,eh?


ezdzit247 wrote:
Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.


The idea that Bill W. expressed in this part of the BB regarding "men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" refers to narcissists. This idea, expressed without an identifying label, most likely came from Bill's communications with Carl Jung and dozens of other psychologists, psychiatrists, and physicians he asked to critique the BB before it was published. It is Carl Jung who is credited with pioneering the study of "narcissism" as a character disorder. He is also credited with having set the course for what today is known as Alcoholics Anonymous. Erich Fromm's later work on the study of narcissism identified "malignant narcissism" as incurable. Scott Peck's 1983 book, "The People of the Lie", like Fromm, identifies malignant narcissism as the root of all human evil. It is this type of narcissist who is "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" and is "naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty." While the jury is still out on whether the cause of this condition is nature or nurture, I agree with Bill's opinion, i.e. "They seem to have been born that way."


i think this is probably the most misunderstood little part of the big book. it has absolutely nothing to do with mental and emotional disorders.

this is referring to people with an IQ so low, they cant understand what honesty is. they cant understand why their actions, or the actions of others, aren't right.usually cant read or write,too.

naturally,constitutionally incapable because they were born that way and not at fault- they didn't ask to be born that way.
they have no way of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty because they don't have the mental capacity.


There is absolutely no correlation between I.Q. and character. People with low I.Q.'s are just as likely to have high principles and good character as people with high I.Q's are to have low principles and bad character.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby avaneesh912 » Tue May 09, 2017 6:06 am

I am overwhelmed and full of fear. Meds are not working, but afraid to change again. Help. Please.


Seeking help from medical community is not a bad idea. With that said, see the areas where life is un-manageable. A good sponsor can help you see the selfishness and self-centeredness around each situation.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby Brock » Tue May 09, 2017 6:21 am

I am overwhelmed and full of fear. Meds are not working, but afraid to change again. Help. Please.

Sorry to hear that you have found yourself in this dark place. I had experience some years ago with a manic depressive member of AA, she didn't drive and I used to carry her for the doctors appointments when she wasn't well, and like you she got upset when told that they were going to change the medication. She said that it takes time to get used to, and changing it meant starting the process all over again, being not sure how she would react to the new prescriptions. But even though she didn't like the change, on both occasions this happened it worked out very well for her, and her condition and ability to enjoy life improved greatly. I am afraid that this is something that you must place in the hands of medical practitioners, and that we here at AA can do little more than wish you the best of luck.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby Brock » Tue May 09, 2017 6:34 am

tomsteve wrote:we can agree to disagree,eh?

Followed by a copy and paste of somebody's very long contribution, does this help anybody, does it contribute any value to this site, absolutely none. I will probably get in trouble with the moderators, but it's worth it for the opportunity to ask some members here, to keep quiet if they have nothing of value to add.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby avaneesh912 » Tue May 09, 2017 6:40 am

to keep quiet if they have nothing of value to add.


They are being driven Brock. We can only tell, but cant tell much.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby PaigeB » Tue May 09, 2017 10:02 am

Squarelymet wrote:I am one of those. I am in very dark place since February. I stopped going to the meetings because I could not relate and hurt too much. Isolating, barely going to work, bed ridden, but no thought of drinking. It hurts too much. I was suicidal. I am sober 9 years, have a sponsor, 2 sponsees and working on the steps when this episode happened. I am overwhelmed and full of fear. Meds are not working, but afraid to change again. Help. Please.

I am sorry and sad that you are hurting squarelymet. Life is difficult but we don't have to do it alone. E-aa has live chat and email meetings besides having these forums. Maybe one or both of those would fit where you are right now. Both will require you so do some separate registration stuff, but you can use your same username & password. Check it out at... http://www.e-aa.org/talk.php

(**I am also sorry that some who are intent on arguing, even a post that said "agree to disagree", have missed your reaching out. I hope you feel free to start another thread.)
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby Noels » Tue May 09, 2017 10:32 am

Brock wrote:
tomsteve wrote:we can agree to disagree,eh?

Followed by a copy and paste of somebody's very long contribution, does this help anybody, does it contribute any value to this site, absolutely none. I will probably get in trouble with the moderators, but it's worth it for the opportunity to ask some members here, to keep quiet if they have nothing of value to add.


Totally agree :D mwah xxx
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby Roberth » Tue May 09, 2017 11:54 am

Hi MissLissy Welcome to E-AA. My name is Robert and I am a Los Angeles area alcoholic. A couple of things I would like to be clear on. I am not qualified to diagnose or treat mental illness. And the only mental health issue I have is PTSD which had made friends with the causes before I got sober.
A chemical in-balance happened to many alcoholics because of our drinking. Whether the bio-polar is a cause of drinking or not is up to the professionals.
I have sponsored people with mental illness that I tell them is let get the alcohol out of the way and see what left. Then I take them through the steps.
I have been sponsoring one for the last 15 years who suffers for clinical depression. What I suggest to him not to just settle for the magic pill and insist on therapy. He learned to treat the depression like any other disease. During that 15 year he has walked through a lot of things some great, some horrible and hasn’t needed to take a drink.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby ezdzit247 » Tue May 09, 2017 3:54 pm

Squarelymet wrote:I am one of those. I am in very dark place since February. I stopped going to the meetings because I could not relate and hurt too much. Isolating, barely going to work, bed ridden, but no thought of drinking. It hurts too much. I was suicidal. I am sober 9 years, have a sponsor, 2 sponsees and working on the steps when this episode happened. I am overwhelmed and full of fear. Meds are not working, but afraid to change again. Help. Please.


Hi Squarelymet

Glad to hear from you again.

I would suggest you call your doctor asap and let him/her know that the meds aren't working for you. He/she may want you to come in for another phys exam, check your thyroid, etc. but your doctor can't help you unless you co-operate and honestly report what's happening to you. If you've changed your meds several times already without results, ask your doctor about directed meditation tapes for depression or other alternative therapies including diet, exercise, talk therapy, etc. There is a solution and you will find the one that's right for you. When you share experience with solving this problem, you will help others going through the same thing.

I had a problem with depression before I started drinking and when it got really bad, I began drinking to self-medicate. That worked for a while and then it stopped working. When I finally got sober, I was surprised and very grateful to discover all symptoms of my depression had disappeared. When I was about 7 years sober, I went through a huge, unexpected upheaval in my life and a crippling depression followed. I experienced all the symptoms you've described. I isolated, didn't work, couldn't eat or sleep, and stayed in bed. After about 3 weeks of this, some friends called to check on me, told me I needed to get out of the house and that they were picking me up at 6 to take me to dinner. I didn't argue. That forced me out of bed, forced me to shower, forced me to wash my hair, and dress. I didn't want to do any of this, but found that forcing myself to do some "normal" things broke what had become my daily pattern. When I woke the next day, I got out of bed and forced myself to do all those "normal" things again, and even left the house again, all by myself. I drove to my local bookstore to look for a self-help book on depression but ending up buying a directed meditation tape entitled "Self-Healing". That night, I listened to the tape for the first time as I drifted off to sleep. I slept soundly and when I woke the next morning, I felt different--better, hopeful even. A week earlier I had been contemplating committing myself to hospital for a month, but after a week of listening to the tape, I was in pretty good shape emotionally and mentally, ready to go back to work and start living my life again. I continued to listen to the tape every night for another 60 days and still use it from time to time for spiritual maintenance. In the 32 years since I discovered this tape, I've never had another bout with depression or any other major health problems.

Keep coming back.....
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