Dual diagnosis?

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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby Noels » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:38 pm

Hi Miss Lizzy :D 17 days is huge in an alcoholic 'so life. Congratulations. The only thing I can add to what EZ said is that this is the time to chat to someone. When you feel so irritable and the thought of a drink or two enters your mind. You dont even need to talk about the drinking. The chat is more to take your mind off that thought and break that particular thinking pattern. The alternative is to keep busy in the hours you can't sleep. That worked for me. Clean the house, do washing, bake cookies, wipe/polish each and every musical disk you have. ... anything that keeps your hands and mind busy. I found the thought lasted only for a few minutes at a time.
Another thing that helped me tremendously was sweets and chocolates. The sugar helped to take the physical craving away.
You don't need to touget it out alone in those difficult hours. Reach out, call someone. We've all been there and we'll help you through it till you're strong enough to stand on your own.
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Noels xxx
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby mini33 » Fri May 05, 2017 6:08 am

hi,

i am new here but not to AA I had 3 yrs sobriety but was not getting well despite seeing and doing what others in recovery had done. it turned out finally to weeks ago after a frustrating ride with psychiatrists that I am bi polar.

so I am also in a position of seeking advice on the subject.
this thread has been really helpful and I have been researching bi polar I do believe it is possible to stay sober with it, interestingly, the Big Book says "there are those to with grave emotional and mental difficulties but they do have the capacity to recover if they are capable of being honest with themselves"

maybe as said this means good self knowledge about your actions, mood and behaviour? and step 10 of course. I think this will help me

but any further advice will be welcomed.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby PaigeB » Fri May 05, 2017 10:13 am

I have often heard, "Untreated alcoholism and bipolar look a lot alike"

But doctors don't understand untreated alcoholism. Bill W. was prone to depression and he talks about it on page 52 of the Big Book as one of the "bedevilments" he also wrote a letter about it to The "Grapevine" January, 1953...
EMOTIONAL SOBRIETY
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=16330&p=114135&hilit=emotional+sobriety+grapevine#p114135
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby ezdzit247 » Fri May 05, 2017 3:01 pm

Hi mini33 and welcome.

Yes, my ESH is that it is very possible to get and stay sober "despite grave emotional and mental disorders". I really think seeing these miracles of healing happen in the rooms for so many different AA members over the years is what keeps me coming back. I don't want to miss any of them.... =smile
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby bbqking » Sat May 06, 2017 10:54 am

D'oh wrote:Hi MissLissy

Why must Kids make everything so difficult today.

If you keep coming back, I know that you will find out so much more about yourself than any Physiatrist, Phycologist, or any Doctor will ever teach you.

You will learn this from Bankers, Farmers, Cleaning Ladies and Secretaries. Who have all once felt the way you do right now, but have found away out.

So try to get out to go to a meeting and see what they are all about,



Why must alcoholics make everything so difficult? Just hang around normal people and drink like they drink. Why not just control your drinking?

Just hang around upstanding normal people who drink responsibly and you'll learn more about yourself than any Physiatrist, Psychologist, or any Doctor will ever teach you.

Many people felt as you do, but then they grew up and became a mature adult and have found a way out.


I sound really ignorant don't I?
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby D'oh » Sat May 06, 2017 11:17 am

bbqking wrote:
D'oh wrote:Hi MissLissy

Why must Kids make everything so difficult today.

If you keep coming back, I know that you will find out so much more about yourself than any Physiatrist, Phycologist, or any Doctor will ever teach you.

You will learn this from Bankers, Farmers, Cleaning Ladies and Secretaries. Who have all once felt the way you do right now, but have found away out.

So try to get out to go to a meeting and see what they are all about,



Why must alcoholics make everything so difficult? Just hang around normal people and drink like they drink. Why not just control your drinking?

Just hang around upstanding normal people who drink responsibly and you'll learn more about yourself than any Physiatrist, Psychologist, or any Doctor will ever teach you.

Many people felt as you do, but then they grew up and became a mature adult and have found a way out.


I sound really ignorant don't I?
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RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby bbqking » Sat May 06, 2017 11:47 am

D'oh wrote:
bbqking wrote:
D'oh wrote:Hi MissLissy

Why must Kids make everything so difficult today.

If you keep coming back, I know that you will find out so much more about yourself than any Physiatrist, Phycologist, or any Doctor will ever teach you.

You will learn this from Bankers, Farmers, Cleaning Ladies and Secretaries. Who have all once felt the way you do right now, but have found away out.

So try to get out to go to a meeting and see what they are all about,



Why must alcoholics make everything so difficult? Just hang around normal people and drink like they drink. Why not just control your drinking?

Just hang around upstanding normal people who drink responsibly and you'll learn more about yourself than any Physiatrist, Psychologist, or any Doctor will ever teach you.

Many people felt as you do, but then they grew up and became a mature adult and have found a way out.


I sound really ignorant don't I?
How It Works

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.


Your ignorance of mental health issues, pathophysiology, and treatment is glaring.

That you would hold up the big book (a suggested program of recovery from alcoholism, where they admitted they know only a little) as a sure fire treatment program for those suffering from grave emotional and mental disorders.......... because of a line written in the book........that is many many decades old..... where in fact we, through scientific advancements, know they knew next to nothing about brain pathophysiology and disorders.........


is stunning.


You have blown my mind for the day. I need to take some time to process this.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby D'oh » Sat May 06, 2017 11:57 am

Have a Great 24 Hours!

I have witnessed Many Amazing Recovery's within the walls of Alcoholics Anonymous (including my own) 1 Day a time! "KISS"
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby Blue Moon » Sat May 06, 2017 12:05 pm

bbqking wrote:That you would hold up the big book (a suggested program of recovery from alcoholism, where they admitted they know only a little) as a sure fire treatment program for those suffering from grave emotional and mental disorders.......... because of a line written in the book........that is many many decades old..... where in fact we, through scientific advancements, know they knew next to nothing about brain pathophysiology and disorders.........


You have a point ... except that the question is being asked in an AA forum! Your point would be valid if any of us walked into a doctor's surgery and pronounced the AA Big Book as the cure to all their ills.

We don't (or at least, we should not) claim to be cure for all emotional and mental disorders. But I've seen and experienced things in AA for which drinking alcohol was never the real problem.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby bbqking » Sat May 06, 2017 12:20 pm

Blue Moon wrote:
bbqking wrote:That you would hold up the big book (a suggested program of recovery from alcoholism, where they admitted they know only a little) as a sure fire treatment program for those suffering from grave emotional and mental disorders.......... because of a line written in the book........that is many many decades old..... where in fact we, through scientific advancements, know they knew next to nothing about brain pathophysiology and disorders.........


You have a point ... except that the question is being asked in an AA forum! Your point would be valid if any of us walked into a doctor's surgery and pronounced the AA Big Book as the cure to all their ills.

We don't (or at least, we should not) claim to be cure for all emotional and mental disorders. But I've seen and experienced things in AA for which drinking alcohol was never the real problem.



My issue with those statements..... I have experience with relatives and friends, and friends of friends, who have had issues with alcohol and major mental health issues, and some just mental health issues without alcohol... who HAVE taken their own lives.

If someone has severe depression, bipolar, schizophrenia... etc.. and may be a danger to themselves or others.... you DON'T just hand them a big book and tell them to go to a meeting just because they may have a drinking problem.

You DO try to get them to a hospital, see a mental health professional, etc...

And to think, when my best friends mother who had severe mental health issues started drinking to self medicate..... all she needed was a big book and a meeting.

Even though she slashed her throat and wrists while completely sober..... I'm sure the big book and a meeting would have fixed everything if she was only willing to go through with the AA program...


Thank god we got her into to a hospital for long term care and treatment after the ER stay, which saved her life. She is doing great now, took them about 6 months to find a medication regimen that worked for her illness, once that was dealt with, she never had the desire to self medicate or drink since.


Sometimes really ignorant people give advice that could be very dangerous....
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby ezdzit247 » Sat May 06, 2017 1:30 pm

My issue with those statements..... I have experience with relatives and friends, and friends of friends, who have had issues with alcohol and major mental health issues, and some just mental health issues without alcohol... who HAVE taken their own lives.

If someone has severe depression, bipolar, schizophrenia... etc.. and may be a danger to themselves or others.... you DON'T just hand them a big book and tell them to go to a meeting just because they may have a drinking problem.

You DO try to get them to a hospital, see a mental health professional, etc...


Precisely.



Sometimes really ignorant people give advice that could be very dangerous....


Exactly.

I totally agree on every point. Thanks for speaking up.... :)
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby Blue Moon » Sat May 06, 2017 4:35 pm

bbqking wrote:If someone has severe depression, bipolar, schizophrenia... etc.. and may be a danger to themselves or others.... you DON'T just hand them a big book and tell them to go to a meeting just because they may have a drinking problem.


We are not here to even diagnose such conditions, let alone treat them. We're not here to get you to a hospital or see a mental health professional. That's up to you and your family. We're here to offer recovery from alcoholism. Even that is only available to those who want it, not to all who need it.

Alcoholics do tragic things when sober. I can fully relate to this. It is why "just don't drink and go to meetings", if taken too-literally, is a death-knell. Yet for some, that's literally all they're able to do in the early days. Alcoholic recovery in AA comes from taking the Steps, but the timing is out of our control. Until those are taken and recovery has happened, I agree: the individual is in a bad place - even if they are alcoholic.

Sometimes really ignorant people give advice that could be very dangerous....

Agreed.

Also, remarkably often, people don't want good advice when it's offered.

And IMO the medical profession, insurers and pharmaceuticals leave too much to chance with volunteer organisations to fill in the gaps left by their profits.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby D'oh » Sun May 07, 2017 1:35 pm

We are on a Sight, geared for Alcoholics, right?

Alcoholics, that tend to exaggerate, find easier softer ways, claim the problem is that Everyone doesn't see that the Alcoholic is always right, and should therefore be center?

I do feel for anyone dealing with Any Mental Illness. I have No Clue of How to deal with any treatment. But I do know how an Alcoholic's mind might work. Finding "Easier Softer Ways". I have also Attended a Meeting chaired by a Member who once had "Wet Brain" (different than Mental Illness). He owed his recovery to "The Program".

I honestly, do not know, or intended this Topic to get this heated. For myself, "Alcohol" was only a symptom. Living Life in my Own Skin, was what I could not handle. AA has taught me a Very Simple way to Handle Life, so I may never have to escape again.

Do I suffer from Sleep Apnea, because I wake up at 2am every morning? Or maybe Parkinson's, because I shake so much at 2 am I can hardly hold a glass of water?

Completely giving one's self to this Honest Program, is the answer for Alcoholism".
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby tomsteve » Sun May 07, 2017 5:13 pm

Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.

i think this is probably the most misunderstood little part of the big book. it has absolutely nothing to do with mental and emotional disorders.

this is referring to people with an IQ so low, they cant understand what honesty is. they cant understand why their actions, or the actions of others, aren't right.usually cant read or write,too.

naturally,constitutionally incapable because they were born that way and not at fault- they didn't ask to be born that way.
they have no way of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty because they don't have the mental capacity.

they cannot or will not give themselves to this simple program because they don't see anything wrong with what they are doing.


as far as emotional and mental disorders;
Sometimes there are cases where alcoholism is complicated by other disorders. A good doctor or psychiatrist can tell you whether these complications are serious.

But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and in following his case afterward.

If we cannot or would rather not do this, we search our acquaintance for a close-mouthed, understanding friend. Perhaps our doctor or psychologist will be the person

There should be no hesitancy in consulting a doctor or psychologist if the condition persists.
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Re: Dual diagnosis?

Postby D'oh » Sun May 07, 2017 7:19 pm

There should be no hesitancy in consulting a doctor or psychologist if the condition persists.
100% correct.

But equally correct
There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.


Honesty is the answer, both ways
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