HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby D'oh » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:06 pm

Wow, there has been quite a lot of editing on this thread.

I am not sure that these words will stay or be banished, but I will try it anyways.

Much has been written about conserving AA through the Traditions. Traditions written a full 7 years after the Big Book over 10 years after the first group of members started to gather. Written because Membership needed guidance, and the Fellowship needed a course to continue what has been started and be there UNCHANGED for years to come, carrying it's message. Am I correct? Can we at least agree on this?

If change is a negative thing, then why the paragraphs in the First Step of the 12 and 12, written 7 years later, did they find it necessary to raise the bar to meet the Potential Alcoholic? Or even 14 years earlier, they mention in the Big Book that God will constantly reveal more? Was this one of those things to be revealed? How many Potential Alcoholics have been saved the 10 or 15 years of Hell?
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby D'oh » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:14 pm

ezdzit247 wrote:
I don't think I can solve anyone's problem, but I know God can if I stay out of His way and don't try to help Him my way... :wink:


Thank You for your humility.

I try to say the 3rd step prayer (as found on pg 63) before saying anything at a meeting, 12th step call, or even after coffee meeting.
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby ezdzit247 » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:40 pm

Hi Reborn

I had read one of your last posts on this thread last night and thought your comments explaining where you were coming from were very interesting. I was surprised and disappointed that one of the e-aa moderators arbitrarily deleted them. I thought your questions asking me where I was coming from demonstrated a sincere effort to try to understand my viewpoint and I was impressed. I understand how passionate you feel about this particular topic and offer my kudos on your maturity for not engaging in ad hominem personal attacks.
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby PaigeB » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:49 pm

I think that when we do service in this program there will always be those who think we should have done it differently. I like to believe it keeps us more balanced. I usually just want to pull my hair out.

I have been at both ends when it comes to deleting en masse, or waiting to long to act. I have been told I was wrong both ways.

What we do is not easy, but it is important. It WILL save a life, I am certain.
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby Reborn » Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:47 pm

ezdzit247 wrote:Hi Reborn

I had read one of your last posts on this thread last night and thought your comments explaining where you were coming from were very interesting. I was surprised and disappointed that one of the e-aa moderators arbitrarily deleted them. I thought your questions asking me where I was coming from demonstrated a sincere effort to try to understand my viewpoint and I was impressed. I understand how passionate you feel about this particular topic and offer my kudos on your maturity for not engaging in ad hominem personal attacks.


Thank you EZ...I'm passionate about recovery period. I will never forget how I felt and how terrible my life was when I got here. AA is not a game to me...I have a deep love/respect for this program and for those who have kicked the rocks out of the way for me..including you :wink: ...even though we disagree on just about everything...you are sober and have been for many years...gives me hope. I don't agree with the moderators deleting my posts(DON'T THEY KNOW WHO I AM :lol: )...seriously speaking though I think there is some value in some of these heated debates..I will do my best in the future to try and rein it in...no promises...progress not perfection :D
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby Spirit Flower » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:10 pm

:D
...a score card reading zero...
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby ann2 » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:50 pm

What a nice exchange :)
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby Brock » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:02 am

...seriously speaking though I think there is some value in some of these heated debates..I will do my best in the future to try and rein it in...no promises...progress not perfection

Once it is kept within acceptable boundaries we can be self moderating, and there shall be no need for others to step in. An example of some of the extraordinary value gained, in just these few pages we have had members quote the 12 & 12, a 1945 Grapevine article, a GSO speech and even a passage from the 12 Concepts, certain topics can encourage this sort of useful information to be looked up and shared for the benefit of all.
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby D'oh » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:02 am

I feel the need to share this and I will try to stay within the Traditions.

I attended a Different Meeting last night (yes it was an Open Meeting). They shared their "Statement of Clarity" (kind of weird for an Open Meeting) but I announced that I am an "Alcoholic" and explained that the "Statement of Clarity" made me uneasy to say that because I feel that they are the same illness, and that I am glad that it is an Open meeting and Grateful to be there.

The Reflections reading really hit home to me. I never related it to this topic, but it was how we tend to build on our Ego's at the expense of others. Something I constantly have to work on and watch. And apologize if I have did this in anyway through this thread,

The main reading was about the 5th step which tied in closely to yesterdays and todays Reflections of the 6th and 7th step.

But I think what hit me most was an other's share. Dually Addicted, and goes to both meetings. It wasn't until last night that he shared that he has been off of Methadone, cold turkey, for the last 2 weeks. I was in awe of the power of the Programs and the Steps in anyone's life.

And then I felt sad that he has not mentioned that at AA meetings. It is one of his struggles in his life.
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby ezdzit247 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:05 pm

Brock wrote: An example of some of the extraordinary value gained, in just these few pages we have had members quote the 12 & 12, a 1945 Grapevine article, a GSO speech and even a passage from the 12 Concepts, certain topics can encourage this sort of useful information to be looked up and shared for the benefit of all.


I totally agree that all of the above mentioned quotes had an extraordinary value to be gained and were especially useful information for newcomers and old timers alike in e-aa discussions like this one. I guess you didn't noticed that both of those quotes now longer exist in this thread Ironically, another e-aa moderator like yourself censored both the Grapevine article quote and the quote from Bob P.'s GSO speech and deleted both of those quotes from this thread. One quote (Bob P.'s) contained about 250 words and the other quote (Bill W's) contained less than a hundred words but according to the moderator, both quotes were "too long" and "violated" forum guidelines.
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby ann2 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:39 pm

Not sure why Mary puts quotes around "violated" since I didn't use that word, I just said it was too long according to our guidelines and that I removed it.

Not a big deal is it? You know, instead of complaining you could join the business meeting and state your concerns in a place that actually has the operation of e-AA in its hands. I mean, isn't it rather silly to get ones panties in a twist about what's being posted in a Aa group's discussion forums and then repeatedly ignore suggestions regarding the proper outlet for those concerns?

If the group decides I've overstepped my authority as moderator, that's important to me. If the group decides our guidelines are incorrect, that too is important to me. The guidelines are based on the moderator committee's best understanding of the group conscience, but maybe the whole issue needs to be looked at again.

I don't know -- it honestly doesn't seem to me to be such a huge deal asking a user to excerpt a short passage and add one's own summation of the rest. Copy and paste is too easy, and we just want to use our discussion space here for discussion, talking, relating, not disgorging vast amounts of text available elsewhere. We're trying to provide a place where we really share.

Literature is great! Read it, tell others about it, quote your favorite passages. If you think the group ought to allow great length, then subscribe to the mailing list which is our business meeting and state your case.

If you don't, then I'll just continue to have suspicions that this is all an effort to raise some kind of uproar here.

Ann
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby Patsy© » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:46 pm

I totally agree that all of the above mentioned quotes had an extraordinary value to be gained and were especially useful information for newcomers and old timers alike in e-aa discussions like this one. I guess you didn't noticed that both of those quotes now longer exist in this thread Ironically, another e-aa moderator like yourself censored both the Grapevine article quote and the quote from Bob P.'s GSO speech and deleted both of those quotes from this thread. One quote (Bob P.'s) contained about 250 words and the other quote (Bill W's) contained less than a hundred words but according to the moderator, both quotes were "too long" and "violated" forum guidelines.


I find it truly amazing that anyone would delete anything that comes directly from Alcoholics Anonymous, in any capacity, unless it is extremely too long.

Brock wrote:
An example of some of the extraordinary value gained, in just these few pages we have had members quote the 12 & 12, a 1945 Grapevine article, a GSO speech and even a passage from the 12 Concepts, certain topics can encourage this sort of useful information to be looked up and shared for the benefit of all.


As someone mentioned earlier, there is extraordinary value to be gained and especially useful information for newcomers and old timers alike in e-aa discussions like the quote above.

WE are all Teachers and WE are all Students here in the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous and to delete any well founded AA history, is really troubling...considering this IS e-AA.

I see some things here that are complete outside issues and outrageously long. And yet those are allowed to stay. And then I see things posted that are wonderful AA experience, from AA members with very accurate AA History, and boom...Gone.

There are some here that genuinely Need to read the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions and AA History. I find it not only sad and deeply troubling, but very confusing when things from Alcoholics Anonymous are deleted. I wonder if some of moderators here are informed and accountable for what they delete... as Members of Alcoholics Anonymous?
Last edited by Patsy© on Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby ezdzit247 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:59 pm

D'oh wrote:I feel the need to share this and I will try to stay within the Traditions.

I attended a Different Meeting last night (yes it was an Open Meeting). They shared their "Statement of Clarity" (kind of weird for an Open Meeting) but I announced that I am an "Alcoholic" and explained that the "Statement of Clarity" made me uneasy to say that because I feel that they are the same illness, and that I am glad that it is an Open meeting and Grateful to be there.

The Reflections reading really hit home to me. I never related it to this topic, but it was how we tend to build on our Ego's at the expense of others. Something I constantly have to work on and watch. And apologize if I have did this in anyway through this thread,

The main reading was about the 5th step which tied in closely to yesterdays and todays Reflections of the 6th and 7th step.

But I think what hit me most was an other's share. Dually Addicted, and goes to both meetings. It wasn't until last night that he shared that he has been off of Methadone, cold turkey, for the last 2 weeks. I was in awe of the power of the Programs and the Steps in anyone's life.

And then I felt sad that he has not mentioned that at AA meetings. It is one of his struggles in his life.


Thanks for your share. I agree.

Over the years I've been trudging the Road of Happy Destiny and going to AA meetings, I have only ever walked out of one AA meeting and that walk out occurred very recently. I became so angry after listening to another white AA member's rude, ignorant, insensitive racist rant about Native Americans in presence of 6 Native American AA members sitting in the same meeting, that I literally HAD to get up out of my chair and walk out of the meeting until I cooled off. Thanks to this program and continually working AA's 12 Steps over the years, I no longer cling to some idealized concept of who I am or deny what I'm capable of. Today, I know who I really am, what pushes my buttons, what brings out the best in me and what brings out the worst. Knowing all that, and accepting/acknowledging these hard truths about myself has given me freedom from bondage to my old self. If it hadn't, i'd probably be posting this from jail right now.... :wink: I never have, but if I ever happen to attend an open AA meeting in which the Primary Purpose Blue Card is read as part of the format adopted by that particular group conscience, it will probably be the second time I walk out of an AA meeting.
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby ann2 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:04 pm

Thanks Mary for redirecting the conversation. Sorry to restate the response to the upset about removing long quotes of literature. We have forums guidelines. If anyone has serious difficulties with this policy, please join the business meeting and bring up your concerns there.

If I were in an AA clubhouse and somebody started reading masses of pages of AA history to me, I'd be really uncomfortable. If however he took out the book, showed me a couple of lines and then started talking about how these words related to him, we could have a really nice talk.

I'm not saying the suggestion to allow long quotes is wrong. I'm just pointing out that we have a different m.o. here. I'm not trying to convince anyone it's better than some ideal, nor that e-AA might in fact be swayed by the argument. What I'm saying is that we don't make the decisions here, in the recovery meeting. We do that in the business meeting.

Join us to take this complaint further. Or, continue talking about something to no purpose.

I'll just keep explaining.

Ann
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Re: HYPER CONSERVATIVE OLD TIMERS - PART 2

Postby Patsy© » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:38 pm

ann2 wrote:Thanks Mary for redirecting the conversation. Sorry to restate the response to the upset about removing long quotes of literature. We have forums guidelines. If anyone has serious difficulties with this policy, please join the business meeting and bring up your concerns there.

If I were in an AA clubhouse and somebody started reading masses of pages of AA history to me, I'd be really uncomfortable. If however he took out the book, showed me a couple of lines and then started talking about how these words related to him, we could have a really nice talk.

I'm not saying the suggestion to allow long quotes is wrong. I'm just pointing out that we have a different m.o. here. I'm not trying to convince anyone it's better than some ideal, nor that e-AA might in fact be swayed by the argument. What I'm saying is that we don't make the decisions here, in the recovery meeting. We do that in the business meeting.

Join us to take this complaint further. Or, continue talking about something to no purpose.

I'll just keep explaining.

Ann




Join us if you wish to outside this complaint further. Or, continue talking about something to no purpose.

I'll just keep explaining.


Ann, due to the guidelines, I am not even sure who you are talking to? And to be honest, I am confused at what you mean by "if you wish to outside this complaint further"

(Edited) ... Ann, I just saw where the post was changed and Mary was added. I apologize, I copied the post the way it was first written.

No one is reading massive amounts of AA history to anyone here, they are being posted and then the individual members choose for themselves if they wish to read the material or not. For those who do not wish to read the material, just scroll or pass by it. For those who do wish to read the material, they are learning some wonderful AA history. I don't see anyone here at this site being held against their will or being ordered to read those posts. Just my thoughts.
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