AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

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KathyAnne
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by KathyAnne »

I found out these stats a couple of weeks ago and it did knock my confidence in the program. I wish someone had never told me.
I talked to people most agreed it was poor then someone said so what!!! And i thought yeh their right so what, now it dosn't bother me.

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Marc L
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by Marc L »

Yes it is true that some AA stats are disturbing.
Concentrate on staying sober and don't worry about it. :D

Marc
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Tosh
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by Tosh »

TheOrangeCrush wrote:Why is AA used in 98% of all rehab centers when it has a 3.8% failure rate. It just doesn't make sense to me. How could you ever expect someone to stay sober when you tell them they're powerless. The facts don't lie. Spontaneous recovery is more successful then AA.
It's used in 98% of all rehab centres 'cos it works! The sub 5% success rate is a total fallacy; it is suspected that those figures were gerrymandered from some statistics where AA asked it's members the dates of their first AA meeting and their sobriety date. Most, like me, drank again after our first meetings - one meeting will not get you sober in the majority of cases - and it takes a little while for AA to 'catch up with your drinking'.

Have a google for 'Effectiveness of AA wikipedia' for a more in-depth read of AAs effectiveness.

And back to your post, if they're not powerless over alcohol, then they could just stop! Mrs Tosh just stopped drinking no problems; she didn't like drinking much anyway; so she stopped. Me? No-one had to tell me I was powerless to stop drinking, I just couldn't do it by myself. I tried my doctor and an alcohol councillor and neither of them could help me.

AA was my last resort prior to suicide and I'm over two years sober now and feeling purdy good!

Anyway, Orangecrush, welcome to the forum, but are you one of those interweb trolls?
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Tosh
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by Tosh »

MarcLacroix wrote:Yes it is true that some AA stats are disturbing.
Concentrate on staying sober and don't worry about it. :D

Marc
Marc,

The stats aren't as disturbing as you think. People have reasons, some of them financially driven to make AA look bad. Remember, AA costs you nothing. I tell newcomers not to put anything in the pot if they can't afford it, or to put very little in if they just want to make a donation; and they can give more - if they want to - when they're sober, working, and earning. And, of course, to give by doing service (helping set up the meeting and clearing up after).

But some non AA organisations want your money to get you sober and have an active interest in making AA look bad.

And with regards statistics, who was it said:
There are lies, there are dammed lies, and there are statistics!
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Tosh
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by Tosh »

KathyAnne wrote:I found out these stats a couple of weeks ago and it did knock my confidence in the program. I wish someone had never told me.
I talked to people most agreed it was poor then someone said so what!!! And i thought yeh their right so what, now it dosn't bother me.
Kathy, I see you're a fellow Brit.

Keep your own statistics from your homegroup. I have a good idea of how many newcomers we've had, how many stayed, how many left, whose drinking and whose not drinking. I live in a small Welsh market town in a small community. The picture is not as bad as some like to make out.

The original post is a strawman, and easily knocked down.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by Mike O »

MarcLacroix wrote: Concentrate on staying sober and don't worry about it. :D

Marc
Amen, brother :D

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jakpar
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by jakpar »

thank you Marc, Tosh and ditto Mike!
I am new, and realise that if calculations are from 1st meeting success numbers,
along with the number of people who dont have a desire to stop drinking (who may be court ordered as an example) and others numbres factoring in and
it is impossible to have impressive numbers.
it is working for me!
and vice versa :D
Jack

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Duke
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by Duke »

Mike O'R wrote:
MarcLacroix wrote: Concentrate on staying sober and don't worry about it. :D

Marc
Amen, brother :D
Ditto.
"If you are humble nothing will touch you, neither praise nor disgrace, because you know what you are.", Mother Teresa

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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by John Boy »

It's not AA's stats that are so bad it's alcoholics stats that are so bad. No matter what approach they use to stay sober alcoholism has a low success rate and is why those of us actually sober is very fortunate.

Trust me other programs other then AA have a equally low success rate.

Keiths not drunk
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by Keiths not drunk »

This is in response to orange crushes original post, this is just my experience.

My name is Keith and I am a alcoholic.
Since alcoholics anonymous is not affiliated with any "rehab" facility, it is part of our traditions, I do not know where your 3.8% statistic comes from. Many rehabs try to use their version of the 12 steps because of the success of AA , but it is not AA.

 Most rehabs realize there is not much chance for the real alcoholic, with out some sort of personality change, once their "patient" has left their facility. So they send them to 12 step meetings as do the jails & courts. Many of these folks come thru our door everyday, and I am sure report back to the appropriate facility that they are attending meetings. Very few of those folks are ready for AA as I know it. Are they who you are talking about?

 Because you attend meetings at AA does not mean you have fully taken the steps of alcoholics anonymous as suggested in the basic text of our society. Not all are ready for AA. Not all want sobriety
 thru AA. My experience and observation in the rooms proves about a 90% -100% success rate of people who honestly have gone thru the process.  I count myself in that group. Now the amount of people who honestly go thru the process of AA, as I see, thru my home group is more around your 3.8% - 10%, your mileage may vary. AA is only for those select few who actually DO the program and remain involved. 

Don't get me wrong, the people who just attend AA receive some kind of relief, some insights on their drinking, but not the personality change that comes with the successful consummation of the steps. There is no magic cure for alcoholism, if there is it sure is not very popular. AA works 100% of the time if you take the steps, continue to work the program and stay involved.  AA works well enough to attract millions of people around the would. I consider myself very lucky in life to have found the solution to my drinking problem, it is up to me stick with AA if I want the life of freedom I enjoy today. I was desperate when I came to AA desperate enough to join and now I am a satisfied customer.

If AA is not for you, I wish you well in you life's journey. AA will be there and welcome you with open arms when you are desperate enough. I have never won much in life but if your 3.8 % statistic is right, I am proud to be a "3.8er", I have won life's lottery.
Grateful to be sober

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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by parmm »

TheOrangeCrush wrote:s. The facts don't lie. Spontaneous recovery is more successful then AA.
?? Defination of spontaneous recovery: "In classical conditioning, the reappearance of the conditioned response after a rest period or period of lessened response. If the conditioned stimulus and unconditioned stimulus are no longer associated, extinction will occur very rapidly after a spontaneous recovery." That didn't work for me, but stopping drinking, one day at a time, did. Oh, I am the product of a rehab way back in 1991. Don't care much for psychobabble. Don't find it has much to do with alcoholism. But I do have other issues related to wars which are treated professionally. AA didn't work worth a darn on them.

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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by leejosepho »

@Keiths not drunk: Top-shelf post there!

Someone once asked how many people in our f2f group actually do recover, and we said essentially the same: Everyone who actually does what is in that book!
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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PaigeB
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by PaigeB »

3.8 percent of what? Of the people that went to treatment? How does that affect A.A.?

How many people attended the Annual Conference?
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

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Marc L
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by Marc L »

Tosh wrote:
MarcLacroix wrote:Yes it is true that some AA stats are disturbing.
Concentrate on staying sober and don't worry about it. :D

Marc
Marc,

The stats aren't as disturbing as you think. People have reasons, some of them financially driven to make AA look bad. Remember, AA costs you nothing. I tell newcomers not to put anything in the pot if they can't afford it, or to put very little in if they just want to make a donation; and they can give more - if they want to - when they're sober, working, and earning. And, of course, to give by doing service (helping set up the meeting and clearing up after).

But some non AA organisations want your money to get you sober and have an active interest in making AA look bad.

And with regards statistics, who was it said:
There are lies, there are dammed lies, and there are statistics!
Hey Tosh;
I gotta' agree with you on several points.
Funny thing is AA is loosely knit and grew so rapidly that it has become unmanageable. :D
AA does not have accurate numbers with which to defend itself so the Rumor Mills are in High Gear.
How is that for Irony...

Marc
Recovery won't just happen by Osmosis. You gonna' have to work at it some.
12th Step work ain't just a job... It's an Adventure.

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leejosepho
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Re: AA's HIGH FAILURE RATE

Post by leejosepho »

MarcLacroix wrote:... AA is loosely knit and grew so rapidly that it has become unmanageable. :D
Because of what alcoholism already does to the naysayers and deviants, Bill did nothing to "protect the program", so to speak.

The success rate of the Steps always has been, still is and will always be 100% ...

... and then things begin getting all messed up whenever people get involved! :shock:
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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