AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

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AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Patsy© » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:35 am

The Foreword to the original Fourth Edition Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous stated the following:

"Fundamentally, though, the difference between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format."

After receiving many letters from AA members and AA Groups regarding the addition that was added to the Forward in the original 4th edition Big Book, a letter was sent to Warren S., Conference Coordinator, General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous, New York, NY

Excerpts from that letter below:

A.A.s believe that electronic meetings are a wonderful tool (particularly for members facing health or mobility challenges), but are not a substitute for participation in local home groups.

The Forewords assertion regarding meeting participation has a significant impact on a foundational aspect of the Fellowships basic message, establishing a home group. This opinion regarding electronic meetings is not in keeping with the spirit of the original advisory action.

It is respectfully submitted that the following proposal for inclusion on the 2002 General Service Conference agenda:

It is proposed that the statement, “Fundamentally, though, the difference between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format” be eliminated from future printings of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous.



And it was eliminated from the future 4th edition Big Book printings because face to face AA Groups, AA meetings and AA members.... are vital to newcomers and to the very survival of Alcoholics Anonymous!

I am so very grateful that when I came to my very first AA meeting, that there was no online, because I was so sick when I showed up at AA, that I would have taken what I wanted and left the rest and I would have died drunk by "reading" my way out of Alcoholics Anonymous.

At my first AA meeting, there were AA members who were gathered together at the AA Group Meeting and they knew how vital those AA meetings were, not only for themselves and their own sobriety, but for the newcomer.

I have read here, at his site, which is (I think, not sure anymore) an AA site, those who are very verbal about saying that AA meetings and AA Group meetings are not necessary and they pass that on without a thought to newcomers. There are many newcomers who show up here at this site and its a shame that some of the AA members here do not understand that its not about THEM and what they guess, its about the newcomer and what is Real. Its about reaching out and helping a newcomer or anyone with a desire to stop drinking and to take the actions necessary to change the person that they bring into Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.

Its not ok for any drunk to isolate in front of ones computer, stuck in ones own head, listening to the yacking and yacking of the committee between ones own two ears...that IS the disease of alcoholism personified, especially for the newcomer.

Making statements that AA meetings are not necessary, is not only harming the newcomer, it harms the very AA Groups and AA meetings that make up Alcoholics Anonymous World Services.

Not understanding how Alcoholics Anonymous stays together in Unity, Service and Recovery, is very sad indeed... but to pass misinformation on to newcomers here, where it might be their first encounter with AA....is a tragedy!

On the other hand, I am deeply grateful for all those AA members here who contribute and share to help others to find an AA face to face meeting and how important that is to Recovery.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Mary » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:13 am

Yes, I would agree. To say that the only difference between online and face to face is one of format - well the tone kind of diminishes what format actually is - perhaps it was a robot that wrote it or someone severely spectrumed.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Mary » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:19 am

The post brings up my whole ambivalence about online aa...I have found the site very helpful for ironing out issues around the steps and the programme but when it comes to actual life or death alcohol related situations, I really do wonder about this kind of tool enabling people to stay away from meetings.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Patsy© » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:03 am

Mary wrote:Yes, I would agree. To say that the only difference between online and face to face is one of format - well the tone kind of diminishes what format actually is - perhaps it was a robot that wrote it or someone severely spectrumed.


No Mary, it was no robot, it was part of the first printing of the 2001 4th Edition Big Book.....it was legit. They took it out because the AA Groups respectfully submitted the proposal for inclusion on the 2002 General Service Conference to eliminate it..... forever! lol

I am with you Mary, thank God the 2002 General Service Conference voted to take it out! :)
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Brock » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:04 am

Thanks for the topic Patsy, I am always grateful to those who start new topics, it keeps the forums 'lively,' this seems to be something you are most passionate about. I believe however, that you may be exaggerating the message some of us post regarding meeting attendance, for example -
I have read here, at this site, which is (I think, not sure anymore) an AA site, those who are very verbal about saying that AA meetings and AA Group meetings are not necessary and they pass that on without a thought to newcomers.

Firstly, yes of course it's an AA site, and an AA group, who follow the traditions and concepts and contribute to GSO etc. Secondly, and I don't want you to waste time, I am pretty certain you won't find it. But if you did find even one post, where someone said to a newcomer that meetings are unnecessary, or even said it to an old timer, without backing it up with words like 'after we have completed the steps,' or 'after we are recovered,' I will eat this computer. If they said it to a newcomer who stated a good reason, locality, certain professions, or sickness/disability etc, as to why they could not attend, that does not count, and my computer is safe.

Common sense tells us that there are going to be people in this world who can't attend, what kind of hope is being offered to them with words like this?
I am so very grateful that when I came to my very first AA meeting, that there was no online, because I was so sick when I showed up at AA, that I would have taken what I wanted and left the rest and I would have died drunk by "reading" my way out of Alcoholics Anonymous.

And for those who do have access to meetings, I agree 100% with what you say here -
On the other hand, I am deeply grateful for all those AA members here who contribute and share to help others to find an AA face to face meeting and how important that is to Recovery.

But what happens after recovery, which meetings are so important to achieve. That's where I hope you will come to understand members like me, who often state that meetings are no longer as important.

Actually, we just got a new member who lives where no meetings are available, I hope we can assure her that this group can assist.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Patsy© » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:11 am

What I shared is that newcomers read what is shared here and there are more than a few who share that attending face to face AA meetings are not necessary or go to youtube to get AA information? ..... I often wonder what newcomers think when they read that? Because I can share this with you.... that Youtube is an outside issue.....and members sharing that they don't attend AA meetings, says much more about that AA member, then it does about AA meetings.

Now that is just my thoughts....and I am SURE that you have thoughts of your own! lol
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Brock » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:38 am

Yes I have thoughts of my own, I am thinking maybe you didn't see the explanation on the you tube issue we already gave. That site is the simplest one on which to listen to AA speakers, speakers which you can also find on just about every AA site, including AA's 'official' site. For example I can put this up because it's an AA link - https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/videos-a ... dio-player they have speakers there, or you can go to you tube and type in AA speakers much easier than fiddling around at aa.org. So once again, we are not suggesting anyone go and watch videos instead of meetings, but AA speakers are a recognized recovery tool. And if you would take my advise and type in a speaker like Chris R, you might just get an idea why some of us are put off, by what passes as meetings in certain areas these days.

Also the only members here who say they don't attend, are those who have very good reason, and even in the big book they include a story of someone recovering without the meetings, even before online sites. Why would they do that, if not to encourage those who simply can not attend.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Blue Moon » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:12 pm

e-AA is an AA Group, registered with GSO in New York, USA. It has a long, well-established history as an AA Group, and frankly follows AA Traditions and Concepts far better than many, many f2f AA Groups.

It is a fact - a fact - that members of e-AA have been unable to attend f2f meetings, due to geography or ill health. They consider e-AA their online Home Group. Many have expressed frustration at AA's intransigence in allowing online AA Groups to be adequately (or even remotely) represented by any Delegate at the annual Conference in NYC.

Those who only have the online option have no representative in AA General Service, or at the Conference.

None.

Little wonder then, that the 4th Edition book was heavily influenced by f2 AA. Online AA was afforded absolutely no opinion in that discussion.

Patsy, your implication that recovery is not possible without a f2f Home Group and f2f meetings is not only wrong, it flies in the face of many who found, and continue to find, recovery at e-AA.

If e-AA or any other online AA is so far from your own liking or belief of what is or isn't possible, I have to question why you're even here.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Patsy© » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:54 pm

Brock:
Yes I have thoughts of my own, I am thinking maybe you didn't see the explanation on the you tube issue we already gave. That site is the simplest one on which to listen to AA speakers, speakers which you can also find on just about every AA site, including AA's 'official' site.

AA only has one site...aa.org. And no, the AA official website doesn't have youtube on it. They have audio, but no youtube that I saw. Youtube is an outside issue.

If you go to aa.org and type in e-AA discussion Group....it says the following: .... "We did not find anything matching your search."

At aa.org it also says the following:
ONLINE A.A. MEETINGS
Just like regular A.A. meetings, online A.A. meetings are autonomous.
Due to the lack of a central geographic location, online A.A. meetings are not a direct part of the US/CANADA service structure. A.A. members are encouraged to participate in service where they physically reside and to participate in group conscience decisions locally. In addition, some online A.A. meetings have business meetings and collect Seventh Tradition contributions.

For example I can put this up because it's an AA link - https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/videos-a ... dio-player they have speakers there, or you can go to you tube and type in AA speakers much easier than fiddling around at aa.org. So once again, we are not suggesting anyone go and watch videos instead of meetings, but AA speakers are a recognized recovery tool. And if you would take my advise and type in a speaker like Chris R, you might just get an idea why some of us are put off, by what passes as meetings in certain areas these days.

Fiddling around at aa.org? lol Wow!
There are many internet websites that have AA speakers, tapes and videos...however not one of them is an Alcoholics Anonymous site. Because Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't have speaker sites. Not one of those Video's that you speak of at youtube or any other site... is Alcoholics Anonymous.

Chris R. is an AA member and doesn't speak for AA as a whole. I understand why some are put off at AA meetings today, but instead of being part of the solution at AA meetings, you are part of the problem. Instead of strengthing the AA Groups Traditions by sharing them, there are those who run out blaming the newcomers or the AA members for conducting the AA meeting the only way they know how. When there are those who do know, understand and practice the AA Traditions, then they ought to pass on what was passed to them.

Also the only members here who say they don't attend, are those who have very good reason, and even in the big book they include a story of someone recovering without the meetings, even before online sites. Why would they do that, if not to encourage those who simply can not attend.

Good reason? Come on, the those who don't attend AA meetings here, have varied reasons why, they want a quick a fix and not finding one, they are gone. Some don't attend for the same reason you don't? Resentment is the number one offender and instead of dealing with the non-sense at some AA meetings, by helping and passing on the AA Traditions, there are those who find an easier softer way...at Youtube! Some also believe incorrectly that they got theirs....and they give nothing back to AA, the newcomer, the AA group or the AA meetings. I for one, believe that I owe my life to AA, because without those AA meetings, I would have died.....of that I have no doubt!

In the Big Book they include a story of someone recovering without the meetings? I have never seen that story, if you could post it, I would read it.


I have seen the following IN the first 164 pages, where the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous is shared directly by Bill Wilson and the first 100 AA members.

Page 14 in the Big Book:
"While I lay in the hospital the thought came that there were thousands of hopeless alcoholics who might be glad to have what had been so freely given me. Perhaps I could help some of them. They in turn might work with others.
My friend had emphasized the absolute necessity of demonstrating these principles in all my affairs. Particularly was it imperative to work with others as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead. If he did not work, he would surely drink again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed. With us it is just like that.
We commenced to make many fast friends and a fellowship has grown up among us of which it is a wonderful thing to feel a part. The joy of living we really have, even under pressure and difficulty. I have seen hundreds of families set their feet in the path that really goes somewhere; have seen the most impossible domestic situations righted; feuds and bitterness of all sorts wiped out. I have seen men come out of asylums and resume a vital place in the lives of their families and communities. Business and professional men have regained their standing. There is scarcely any form of trouble and misery which has not been overcome among us. In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our families. We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship hey seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from 50 to 200 persons. We are growing in numbers and power."

Page 89 in the Big Book:
"Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail. This is our twelfth suggestion: Carry this message to other alcoholics! You can help when no one else can. You can secure their confidence when others fail. Remember they are very ill."

"Life will take on new meaning. To watch people recover, to see them help others, to watch loneliness vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, to have a host of friends - this is an experience you must not miss. We know you will not want to miss it. Frequent contact with newcomers and with each other is the bright spot of our lives."

Page 132 in the Big Book:
"We have been speaking to you of serious, sometimes tragic things. We have been dealing with alcohol in its worst aspect. But we aren't a glum lot. If newcomers could see no joy or fun in our existence, they wouldn't want it. We absolutely insist on enjoying life. We try not to indulge in cynicism over the state of the nations, nor do we carry the world's troubles on our shoulders. When we see a man sinking into the mire that is alcoholism, we give him first aid and place what we have at his disposal. For his sake, we do recount and almost relive the horrors of our past. But those of us who have tried to shoulder the entire burden and trouble of others find we are soon overcome by them."

"So we think cheerfulness and laughter make for usefulness. Outsiders are sometimes shocked when we burst into merriment over a seemingly tragic experience out of the past. But why shouldn't we laugh? We have recovered, and have been given the power to help others."

Page 152 in the Big Book:
"We have shown how we got out from under. You say, "Yes, I'm willing. But am I to be consigned to a life where I shall be stupid, boring and glum, like some righteous people I see? I know I must get along without liquor, but how can I? Have you a sufficient substitute?"
"Yes, there is a substitute and it is vastly more than that. It is a fellowship in Alcoholics Anonymous. There you will find release from care, boredom and worry. Your imagination will be fired. Life will mean something at last. The most satisfactory years of your existence lie ahead. Thus we find the fellowship, and so will you."
"How is that to come about?" you ask. "Where am I to find these people?"
"You are going to meet these new friends in your own community. Near you, alcoholics are dying helplessly like people in a sinking ship. If you live in a large place, there are hundreds. High and low, rich and poor, these are future fellows of Alcoholics Anonymous. Among them you will make lifelong friends. You will be bound to them with new and wonderful ties, for you will escape disaster together and you will commence shoulder to shoulder your common journey. Then you will know what it means to give of yourself that others may survive and rediscover life. You will learn the full meaning of "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

Page 159 in the Big Book:
"All this time our friend of the hotel lobby incident remained in that town. He was there three months. He now returned home, leaving behind his first acquaintance, the lawyer and the devil-may-care chap. These men had found something brand new in life. Though they knew they must help other alcoholics if they would remain sober, that motive became secondary. It was transcended by the happiness they found in giving themselves for others. They shared their homes, their slender resources, and gladly devoted their spare hours to fellow-sufferers. They were willing, by day or night, to place a new man in the hospital and visit him afterward. They grew in numbers."
"A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be attended."

Page 160 in the Big Book:
"Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people might bring their problems."

Page 164 in the Big Book:
"Still you may say: "But I will not have the benefit of contact with you who write this book." We cannot be sure. God will determine that, so you must remember that your real reliance is always upon Him. He will show you how to create the fellowship you crave."
Last edited by Patsy© on Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Patsy© » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:05 pm

Blue Moon wrote:e-AA is an AA Group, registered with GSO in New York, USA. It has a long, well-established history as an AA Group, and frankly follows AA Traditions and Concepts far better than many, many f2f AA Groups.

It is a fact - a fact - that members of e-AA have been unable to attend f2f meetings, due to geography or ill health. They consider e-AA their online Home Group. Many have expressed frustration at AA's intransigence in allowing online AA Groups to be adequately (or even remotely) represented by any Delegate at the annual Conference in NYC.

Those who only have the online option have no representative in AA General Service, or at the Conference.

None.

Little wonder then, that the 4th Edition book was heavily influenced by f2 AA. Online AA was afforded absolutely no opinion in that discussion.

Patsy, your implication that recovery is not possible without a f2f Home Group and f2f meetings is not only wrong, it flies in the face of many who found, and continue to find, recovery at e-AA.

If e-AA or any other online AA is so far from your own liking or belief of what is or isn't possible, I have to question why you're even here.


Only AA groups who have a geographic location are registered at GSO....they are also given a GSO number for the AA group located at a geographic location.

At aa.org and I typed in e-AA discussion Group....it says the following: .... "We did not find anything matching your search."

This site is registered at GSO? .... Then why would it have no representative in AA General Service, or at the AA Conference?
And that would be the reason that Online AA was afforded absolutely no opinion in that discussion regarding the 4th edition Big Book also. If Online isn't part of the AA service Structure, why would online given an opinion?



At aa.org it also says the following:

ONLINE A.A. MEETINGS
Just like regular A.A. meetings, online A.A. meetings are autonomous.
Due to the lack of a central geographic location, online A.A. meetings are not a direct part of the US/CANADA service structure. A.A. members are encouraged to participate in service where they physically reside and to participate in group conscience decisions locally. In addition, some online A.A. meetings have business meetings and collect Seventh Tradition contributions.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Patsy© » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:14 pm

If e-AA or any other online AA is so far from your own liking or belief of what is or isn't possible, I have to question why you're even here.


I never said it was far from my own liking, what I did say is that face to face AA groups and AA meetings are vital to the Unity, Service, Recovery and the very Survival of AA as a whole, AA groups and AA members whose lives depend on them.

I have to wonder why you would belittle face to face AA groups with your comment about the 4th edition Big Book?

They removed that from the 4th Edition Big Book because the informed group conscience of the General Service Conference voted to remove the proposed statement. And they voted to remove “Fundamentally, though, the difference between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format” from all future printings of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous........because its simply not true.
"
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Blue Moon » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:50 pm

Patsy© wrote:Only AA groups who have a geographic location are registered at GSO....they are also given a GSO number for the AA group located at a geographic location.

At aa.org and I typed in e-AA discussion Group....it says the following: .... "We did not find anything matching your search."

Perhaps that's because there's no e-AA Discussion Group. This is the discussion forum of The e-AA Group. The e-AA Group also has other recovery venues at e-aa.org. And yes, e-AA does have a GSO number.

However, an AA Group does not have to register a GSO # to be legitimate. Any 2 or 3 alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA Group. This is enshrined in AA's 3rd Tradition. Nothing says that those 2 or 3 must be gathered in-person, or must have a GSO #. Before online, loners AA Groups gathered via letter and telephone, and resources such as Grapevine. So this is not a new phenomenon, even if you're unfamiliar with it (which is understandable, f2f groups rarely talk about other AA resources).

This site is registered at GSO? .... Then why would it have no representative in AA General Service, or at the AA Conference?


Because it is an online AA Group with no fixed abode, no DCM or Conference Delegate to represent it, no vote at any Area Assembly.

Other online AA Groups have a similar gripe. Unfortunately, back in the day they were too chaotic to make an Online Conference work. However, there is an online Intergroup where this comes up from time to time (and which e-AA participate in with our own elected IGR).

If Online isn't part of the AA service Structure, why would online given an opinion?

Because it is an AA Group in this so-called democratic structure of AA General Service. Either way, we should not be pretending that GSO takes into account all AA members and all AA Groups who want a voice in such matters regarding things like the 4th Edition changes, when it categorically does not.

Here's a truth you may not like to hear: sooner or later, either GSO is going to have to change, or f2f AA will go the way of the Washingtonians. Don't blame the messenger for this, they aren't doing what Bill W said they need to do: evolve. Adapt. Change. Get with the times.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Blue Moon » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:06 pm

Patsy© wrote:I have to wonder why you would belittle face to face AA groups with your comment about the 4th edition Big Book?

They removed that from the 4th Edition Big Book because the informed group conscience of the General Service Conference voted to remove the proposed statement.
"

Because at the time the 4th Edition was published, the vast majority of AA Members who were expressing an opinion were rather clueless about what online even was, let alone its viability as a legitimate resource for recovery from alcoholism. It was not an informed conscience.

If a Fifth Edition were to be published today, and similar opinion were to be sought from the Fellowship, I believe you would learn a very different Group Conscience, because it's now better-informed as a whole (although Area still has older members who readily admit they don't even have a computer let alone know what "online" is). Yet IME online AA itself hasn't really changed. Only its accessibility and understanding among the masses has evolved.

4th Edition was out of date before it was even published. It talked of "modem-to-modem", which even then was strangely-archaic language for those of us who were on DSL, ADSL, cable, now wifi / 4G wireless.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Patsy© » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:50 pm

At aa.org and I typed in e-AA discussion Group....it says the following: .... "We did not find anything matching your search."

Perhaps that's because there's no e-AA Discussion Group. This is the discussion forum of The e-AA Group. The e-AA Group also has other recovery venues at e-aa.org. And yes, e-AA does have a GSO number.
[/quote]

What is the GSO number?

However, an AA Group does not have to register a GSO # to be legitimate. Any 2 or 3 alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA Group. This is enshrined in AA's 3rd Tradition. Nothing says that those 2 or 3 must be gathered in-person, or must have a GSO #. Before online, loners AA Groups gathered via letter and telephone, and resources such as Grapevine. So this is not a new phenomenon, even if you're unfamiliar with it (which is understandable, f2f groups rarely talk about other AA resources).


"Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation."

I am curious, what is "Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group"? Its not part of AA, is this site affiliated with this software company?.... in looking it up, it says: "phpBB is a free flat-forum bulletin board software solution that can be used to stay in touch with a group of people or can power your entire website.


This site is registered at GSO? .... Then why would it have no representative in AA General Service, or at the AA Conference?


Because it is an online AA Group with no fixed abode, no DCM or Conference Delegate to represent it, no vote at any Area Assembly.

Other online AA Groups have a similar gripe. Unfortunately, back in the day they were too chaotic to make an Online Conference work. However, there is an online Intergroup where this comes up from time to time (and which e-AA participate in with our own elected IGR).


Back in the day, I was there, I attended the AA Conference.......I saw the small room that AA intergroup online had, and there wasn't very many members who showed up. The Online Intergroup that you speak of, doesn't have any AA groups online that they mention, they do have many AA meetings online that they post the web addresses to.

However, there is a major difference between AA groups and AA meetings. An AA meeting can be held anywhere, at any time. An AA group is local is registered so that they are part of AAWS...and they are given a GSO number and if not, they don't have a vote at the General Service Conference. And since the online AA isn't recognized as part of the AA Service Structure....they wouldn't have a vote either....so why would they have given this site a GSO number?

If Online isn't part of the AA service Structure, why would online given an opinion?

Because it is an AA Group in this so-called democratic structure of AA General Service. Either way, we should not be pretending that GSO takes into account all AA members and all AA Groups who want a voice in such matters regarding things like the 4th Edition changes, when it categorically does not.

Here's a truth you may not like to hear: sooner or later, either GSO is going to have to change, or f2f AA will go the way of the Washingtonians. Don't blame the messenger for this, they aren't doing what Bill W said they need to do: evolve. Adapt. Change. Get with the times.


No, GSO takes into account those AA groups that are registered and have a GSO number, so they can vote. If they are not registered and have a GSO number...then they can't vote.
There was no voting to remove what was untrue from the 4th edition Big Book, why would there be? There is already in place that nothing in the 164 pages of the Big Book can be changed without 3/4 of all AA groups world wide voting to change it.

The truth is, and you won't like it, but AA will not go the way of the Washingtonians, as long as we adhere to the 12 Steps, the 12 Traditions and the 12 Concepts. Its not me who has to get with the times because its obvious that the General Service Conference will not allow the change for online within the AA Service Structure. There is no messenger that AA has to listen too, because obviously they have made their decision. I think what might apply is page 449 in the 3 edition Big Book or page 417 in the 4th edition Big Book.
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Re: AA Groups and AA meetings....Necessary?

Postby Patsy© » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:11 pm

I have to wonder why you would belittle face to face AA groups with your comment about the 4th edition Big Book?

They removed that from the 4th Edition Big Book because the informed group conscience of the General Service Conference voted to remove the proposed statement.

Because at the time the 4th Edition was published, the vast majority of AA Members who were expressing an opinion were rather clueless about what online even was, let alone its viability as a legitimate resource for recovery from alcoholism. It was not an informed conscience.


That is so not true. :lol:

If a Fifth Edition were to be published today, and similar opinion were to be sought from the Fellowship, I believe you would learn a very different Group Conscience, because it's now better-informed as a whole (although Area still has older members who readily admit they don't even have a computer let alone know what "online" is). Yet IME online AA itself hasn't really changed. Only its accessibility and understanding among the masses has evolved.

4th Edition was out of date before it was even published. It talked of "modem-to-modem", which even then was strangely-archaic language for those of us who were on DSL, ADSL, cable, now wifi / 4G wireless.


4th Edition wasn't out of date! lol.....Modem to Modem was the language back then, all computers had a modem. If a 5th Edition were published and there will be...I believe it would be exactly the same, because again, it takes 3/4 of all AA groups world wide to change even one word in the first 164 pages. And because there are much more onliners who relapse over and over, because there is no Program of recovery that is passed on from one alcoholic to another online because the type written word can be so misunderstood online when so many are answering.... and new sobriety and recovery are already so confusing for the newcomer. The Fellowship online will not help to change anyone who is logging on, the same as the Fellowship alone will not help to change anyone face to face.
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