Walked out of two meetings this week

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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby Noels » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:26 am

:D :D :D shoulda made the 2 signs. :D :D :D
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby michmjon » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:07 am

tomsteve wrote:what keeps me recovered when I don't go to meetings for a while?
cant be any simpler than this:

It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done." These are thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can exercise our will power along this line all we wish. It is the proper use of the will.


I'm probably going to draw a lot of ire for this - but this is a point where I disagree 100% with the Big Book and the AA Program in general- that one cannot recover from alcoholism and that a person is never cured. Yes, alcohol is a subtle foe. I agree with that. But there is plenty of science to back up total recovery. A 2005 study by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) was run over a two year period. Here is a brief snippet of the study results:

"All participants met the criteria for alcohol dependence, including tolerance to alcohol, withdrawal symptoms, and persistent desire or attempts to stop or reduce drinking. Their alcohol dependence had started more than a year before the survey. Most were middle-aged white men. More than half were married or living with someone, and 60% had attended or completed college. Three out of four had a family history of alcoholism. One-third of the respondents reported drinking eight or more standard drinks a day during their heaviest drinking. More than half had started drinking between ages 18 and 24.

More than a third of participants (35.9%) were fully recovered from alcohol dependence -- meaning they had complete abstinent recovery or became a "low-risk drinker." That definition is in accordance with standards set by the American Psychological Association. About 18% had become abstainers, totally giving up alcohol. A similar number (17.7%) were low-risk drinkers. They hadn't quit alcohol drinking completely but had no symptoms of either abuse or dependence. They also didn't drink enough in the past to raise their relapse risk.

However, one in four participants was still dependent on alcohol. About a third were in partial remission, showing some symptoms of alcohol abuse or dependence. Others were dangerously close to relapse. About 12% were past risk drinkers; they had no symptoms of dependency but had a pattern of drinking that raised their relapse risk. For men, a risk drinker is one that drinks more than 14 drinks per week, or five or more drinks on any given day. For women, a risk drinker consumes more than seven drinks per week, or four or more drinks on any day."
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby positrac » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:24 am

If I were to grab on to science and polls, studies and the rest of this I'd never gotten sober because opinions have it that I am never capable of recovery. I am not cured and I am ok with that because it provides me with a healthy boundary. We each have to come to grips with our situation and alcohol is a mere symptom of my make up.

I was told that if I found people in the rooms who had what I wanted then I could find success and I stick with the winners and kick all those others out of the way because I don't need that distraction in my life. I know me and I don't fight higher power concepts and I know without some faith I will go out and drink and or drug because mankind in general will jam me up! That is why I've suggested over and over to leave the comfort zone of BS meeting and get to a place and find success in recovery. I was told we have excuses but results is necessary for success. Recovery is not a race as it is a life long manner in how we live. We won't become some glowing presence in society either; although some people think they are and it is not real.

I hope you can find a path of acceptance and find meetings that provide the necessary help, medicine, education that makes you feel good. I've been living sober for over 27 years and I am far from the resident expert and I don't care to be the expert. I can only provide my experience and maybe someone will find something they want from my messages.

Lastly misery is optional and I found that hell is closer than I wanted even in periods of sobriety and so I changed my course to get well.
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby Chelle » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:27 am

If knowledge alone could keep me sober, then all of that info sure would be helpful Mich. Walking out of meetings and "taking a break" for me, would signal something is wrong with MY condition. Perhaps a newcomer might walk into one of these political meetings of yours, and you could be helpful to them. The book says we have RECOVERED from a hopeless condition of mind and body. Peace
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby Layne » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:11 am

michmjon wrote:
tomsteve wrote:what keeps me recovered when I don't go to meetings for a while?
cant be any simpler than this:

It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done." These are thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can exercise our will power along this line all we wish. It is the proper use of the will.


I'm probably going to draw a lot of ire for this - but this is a point where I disagree 100% with the Big Book and the AA Program in general- that one cannot recover from alcoholism and that a person is never cured. Yes, alcohol is a subtle foe. I agree with that. But there is plenty of science to back up total recovery. A 2005 study by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) was run over a two year period. Here is a brief snippet of the study results:

"All participants met the criteria for alcohol dependence, including tolerance to alcohol, withdrawal symptoms, and persistent desire or attempts to stop or reduce drinking. Their alcohol dependence had started more than a year before the survey. Most were middle-aged white men. More than half were married or living with someone, and 60% had attended or completed college. Three out of four had a family history of alcoholism. One-third of the respondents reported drinking eight or more standard drinks a day during their heaviest drinking. More than half had started drinking between ages 18 and 24.

More than a third of participants (35.9%) were fully recovered from alcohol dependence -- meaning they had complete abstinent recovery or became a "low-risk drinker." That definition is in accordance with standards set by the American Psychological Association. About 18% had become abstainers, totally giving up alcohol. A similar number (17.7%) were low-risk drinkers. They hadn't quit alcohol drinking completely but had no symptoms of either abuse or dependence. They also didn't drink enough in the past to raise their relapse risk.

However, one in four participants was still dependent on alcohol. About a third were in partial remission, showing some symptoms of alcohol abuse or dependence. Others were dangerously close to relapse. About 12% were past risk drinkers; they had no symptoms of dependency but had a pattern of drinking that raised their relapse risk. For men, a risk drinker is one that drinks more than 14 drinks per week, or five or more drinks on any given day. For women, a risk drinker consumes more than seven drinks per week, or four or more drinks on any day."


Just curious as to what is the point of this? The information presented is all well and good, but it doesn't really impact me and my subsequent behavior one way or the other. Whether I am recovered, or recovering, or high risk, or low risk or...etc... it is still just words. Words can be a playground for my mind. A dangerous playground, where I shouldn't go without adult supervision.

I don't even need an answer to my question, it is just a base question that I ask myself many times when I need to get to my bottom line motives. When I get down to my bottom line motives, then I answer the question of whether I am looking for a way in or a way out.
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby Spirit Flower » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:21 am

There is a cycle which is true for many people: stop drinking, go a long time without drinking, try a drink, soon find themselves drinking way too much again. These are the people who can never safely take even one drink. But their mind tells them to try it and they do with terrible results. So a psychic change is needed. The psychic change is the point of the 12 steps. (Yes, you can find some other method).

I see more than one person a year who describes how they went back out after many years of sobriety. I only go to one meeting a week, so that is a frequent occurrence for me to see. Failure to enlarge their spiritual life is usually the root cause of going back out.
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby Blue Moon » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:31 pm

michmjon wrote:this is a point where I disagree 100% with the Big Book and the AA Program in general- that one cannot recover from alcoholism and that a person is never cured.


The BB uses the word "recovered" in many places, to describe us after we've worked the program, e.g. "To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book".

Alcoholism is a 2-fold condition: allergy of the body + obsession of the mind. The AA program deals with mental / emotional / spiritual recovery of that obsession. When honestly no longer obsessed, we are recovered. But it doesn't even try to do anything about the physical allergy, we simply feel no need nor real desire to drink. To be cured would mean being able to drink "normally", i.e. in moderation over a sustained period of time. Throughout the years, alcoholics have tried to prove themselves "cured" of the condition, or otherwise immune from it. Too-often with disastrous, sometimes even tragic, consequences.
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby tomsteve » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:40 am

"Yes, alcohol is a subtle foe. I agree with that. But there is plenty of science to back up total recovery. A 2005 study by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) was run over a two year period. Here is a brief snippet of the study results:"

think i just read enough.

i am 100% recovered, just as the big book says i would be.
but theres conditions on me staying that way.
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby michmjon » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:17 am

After a long talk with my sponsor (and long time friend) and another friend who is going through the program, I made the decision yesterday that AA just isn't for me. I see the great results that the program brings for others and the way that it has turned their lives around and the more power to them and the program. But- I am not a spiritual person. I am more a pragmatist and have been so my entire life. I left the church at an early age after realizing religion didn't give me any answers and I saw it as a path to accepting something that I just couldn't reasonably accept. I put my "faith" in science and the power of the individual mind rather than faith in a spiritual almighty being. For me, I remain sober because I want to remain so. To me, turning oneself over to someone or something else just isn't a path I am willing to follow. I've heard in meetings that I should use the group as a higher power. But I just don't fit in with the group- either in the Alano Club I was going to or the Church group I attended a few times. Sitting in meetings was giving me no comfort, no encouragement- nothing. The groups around here- and in this entire area- are made up of mostly blue collar types who have never ventured far out of the area and have lived here their entire lives. I have lived abroad for three years, lived in California for over 28 years and here for the past ten years. I have a Master's degree. Because of my greater "wordy" experiences I was leaving meetings more frustrated than anything else. So with I am calling this my last post and won't be attending any more meetings. I have not touched alcohol in a long time and plan on continuing my sobriety a long time. I have seen what alcohol did to me and I am unwilling to go down that path again.
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby tomsteve » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:00 am

best to ya on your journey.
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby Blue Moon » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:07 am

michmjon wrote:After a long talk with my sponsor (and long time friend) and another friend who is going through the program, I made the decision yesterday that AA just isn't for me.


OK. Good luck!

FWIW I am also not religious at all, would be quite insulted if someone described me otherwise. Whether in AA or not, I recommend checking out things like Buddhism or Taoism. Here in Western society, we become shackled to a lot of mentality and nonsense equating "spiritual" with "deity". IME, the two are very different. If the behaviour of too many here is truly representative of God, then I'm better than God...
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby Noels » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:09 pm

Aaah no Mitch!!! What ya doin? Get back here!!! :( :( :(
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby emeraldg » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:59 pm

There are large quantities of individuals in the program who have masters degrees and even more advanced education than that. And I've met several people who have traveled the world. Both types in the city I live in, a "blue collar" city. So, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. But I do sincerely wish you well
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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby Chelle » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:35 pm

That's too bad Mich. It sounded like you were headed in that direction from your posts. You have managed to stay away from the drink for a good while, and it seems to be working for you. Good luck. I hope you wont hesitate to suggest Alcoholics Anonymous to a fellow traveler that can not stay sober on the path you are following.

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Re: Walked out of two meetings this week

Postby positrac » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:41 am

michmjon wrote:After a long talk with my sponsor (and long time friend) and another friend who is going through the program, I made the decision yesterday that AA just isn't for me. I see the great results that the program brings for others and the way that it has turned their lives around and the more power to them and the program. But- I am not a spiritual person. I am more a pragmatist and have been so my entire life. I left the church at an early age after realizing religion didn't give me any answers and I saw it as a path to accepting something that I just couldn't reasonably accept. I put my "faith" in science and the power of the individual mind rather than faith in a spiritual almighty being. For me, I remain sober because I want to remain so. To me, turning oneself over to someone or something else just isn't a path I am willing to follow. I've heard in meetings that I should use the group as a higher power. But I just don't fit in with the group- either in the Alano Club I was going to or the Church group I attended a few times. Sitting in meetings was giving me no comfort, no encouragement- nothing. The groups around here- and in this entire area- are made up of mostly blue collar types who have never ventured far out of the area and have lived here their entire lives. I have lived abroad for three years, lived in California for over 28 years and here for the past ten years. I have a Master's degree. Because of my greater "wordy" experiences I was leaving meetings more frustrated than anything else. So with I am calling this my last post and won't be attending any more meetings. I have not touched alcohol in a long time and plan on continuing my sobriety a long time. I have seen what alcohol did to me and I am unwilling to go down that path again.



You are fighting to many demons with or with your a masters degree! You have to admit more than just being powerless over alcohol and until you accept life on it's terms and not yours you will remain a wondering soul looking for a purpose. I just have a high school education and it doesn't take so much to understand misery is optional. I wish you well and go in peace.
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