Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Spirit Flower » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:52 am

Some people sent by the court do stay and get sober. But, I stick by the separation of church and state.
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Noels » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:21 am

You're putting words in my mouth...I never said or even implied that anyone who walks through the doors is a waste of time.

Oh? my humble apology. I clearly misinterpreted that is refering to Ebby and 3 members of the Oxford group approaching a judge....they got Ebby out of going to jail...and guess what Ebby didn't stay sober. Perhaps I should have asked (which I'm doing now) what you meant by these words then?

I carry the message regardless of the crowd gathered at a meeting. What I did say is there will always be folks who are at meetings to simply get a slip signed. Who are not there to hear a solution. Who are just there to jump through the hoop. Perhaps this doesn't happen where you are in the world but it happens in the states a lot.

Here again I must have misinterpreted? So you are actually saying you carry the message regardless of the crowd gathered inside already sitting down?

I will repeat myself for the 3RD time...unless a person is ready to hear a solution no one including the courts make them listen or even want to be there. I appreciate what you are saying but suggesting that I think anyone is a waste of time in AA is BS!

unless a person is ready to hear I cant agree with you more on this. I'm actually experiencing that feeling right now :D

Enjoy your day and I'm not argueing. Just trying to "widen the vision" a bit.

Mwah xxx Noels
Last edited by Noels on Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Noels » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:22 am

Spirit Flower wrote:Some people sent by the court do stay and get sober. But, I stick by the separation of church and state.


No problem Spirit. I'm not here to convince anyone to change their minds :D

Have an awesome day

Mwah xxx Noels
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Brock » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:32 am

This is a subject close to my heart.

In our island the idea that driving drunk was bad only really took hold a few years ago, the breathalyzer was introduced and AA was overflowing with “newcomers.” Some were delighted and the 'hat' of every meeting was full of money, then some real alcoholics found their anonymity broken by these “weekend warriors,” who didn't give a hoot for traditions or being in the meetings in the first place.

I mounted a one man crusade and addressed meetings and inter groups, most thought like some here that I was not giving the DWI's a fair chance. Fortunately a few came around and realized that as most here are saying, these people were there as punishment and this does not work, and further has the potential to spoil the chances of those who want recovery and came voluntarily. Because just as I spoke out about people coming to meetings to “support” someone else the same applies here, we promise newcomers that their anonymity is safe because everyone is there for the same reason, and this becomes a lie when half the room is there as punishment for breaking the law. I also used the AA official guidelines on this subject found here - http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/mg-05_coopwithcourt.pdf – It is very long, but here are a couple of pertinent sections -
In recent years, a larger number of “safe driving” programs have been set up for drivers in trouble with the law because of some episode related to drinking. These programs have many different names—such as Alcohol Safety Action Project (A.S.A.P.), Driving While Intoxicated (D.W.I.), Driving Under the Influence (D.U.I.), and the like. Many A.A. committees that cooperate with these programs offer attendees a chance to learn about A.A., and some are now members of A.A. as a result.

People have to pay to attend these, and many use them as alternatives to AA, the ones ending up with us are the cheapskates who don't want to pay, or to be fair in some small communities it may be the only choice. It is far better as suggested that AA cooperate with these other outfits, and attend some of their meetings to address the people there about alcoholism and AA, so those who do actually have a problem will know where to find help, the other solution in the document is this -
The court class (sometimes called an honor court meeting) usually meets in the court building, and may be one of three types:
1. Meetings about A.A., usually run by A.A. members, though sometimes an officer of the court presides.
2. Meetings handled by several agencies, with a doctor explaining alcoholism, and other professionals and/or volunteers talking about alcoholism. Usually, at least one session is turned over to A.A. members, who put on a “sample” A.A. meeting. They tell briefly their own stories, and also tell how A.A. works. A.A. members experienced at this say it is important to avoid criticizing anything. These classes seem to work best when A.A. speakers emphasize the benefits of sobriety and the A.A. way of life.

Simple and straightforward, you get to know about AA and alcoholism, without upsetting the real alcoholics who choose to seek the solution in the regular meetings. The people who insist on throwing love at everything, and saying how terrible we are at not giving these folks the court sends a chance, may have their heart in the right place, but their heads are in the clouds and their feet not firmly planted on the ground, where we address what is practical and best for all concerned.
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby michmjon » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:56 am

Noels wrote:MICH - can we really 'qualify ' another as an alcoholic especially since alcoholism is a progressive disease? Is it not a good thing that those kids learned about alcoholism at their age?


Both these individuals now say "I am so-and-so and I am an alcoholic" before they speak. When they first came to the meetings it was just "I am so-and-so." One of them stated they were struggling with adding "and I'm an alcoholic" because of the fact that she could have just one drink, that she never drank alone, that she rarely got drunk... She was pulled over leaving the parking lot of a restaurant for running a stop sign after having attended a wedding reception and had drank about six mixed drinks over a four hour period and blew right at the legal limit. She admits to still enjoying the occasional glass of wine when eating out or the occasional drink with friends. That is why I said I do not "qualify" her as an alcoholic. She freely admits that she has a "thinking problem" and not a "drinking problem" and that she finds the meetings extremely therapeutic.
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Noels » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:21 am

may have their heart in the right place, but their heads are in the clouds and their feet not firmly planted on the ground,
Aaaahhh thanks Brock :D you really made my day :D I take it as a compliment as believe spirit lives within my heart and frankly, who would want their head and feet on the ground when they can experience unconditional love and one-ness with all of creation 28 hours a day every day? Bless you, you big teddy bear :D Big mwah for you :D

where we address what is practical and best for all concerned.
Strange that you're saying this. I say strange because in a share last night the speaker actually specifically stated that when he finds he's "thinking for others" its usually time to take a step back and look at his own thinking again since he used to do the "thinking for others" when he was drinking. Shows you how we all look at things differently :lol:

Anyways, ive actually now filed this particular discussion in my "finished box". I do want to thank all the participants though as I truly enjoyed this discussion :D

Have a good evening and talk again soon. I'm off to make myself a gorgeous strong cuppa as its raining and pretty cool here by us today.

mwah xxx Noels
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Noels » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:24 am

She freely admits that she has a "thinking problem" and not a "drinking problem" and that she finds the meetings extremely therapeutic.
Well .... I cant say anything other than "good for her. Clever girl as that seems to be the overall problem of the alcoholic" :D

Speak again soon
mwah xxx Noels
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Brock » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:43 am

...who would want their head and feet on the ground when they can experience unconditional love and one-ness with all of creation 28 hours a day every day? Bless you, you big teddy bear Big mwah for you

All this bless you and teddy bear and unconditional love, is just someone who when faced with an official AA stand on a matter, realizing it makes their own opinion less attractive, resorts to silliness, and talking about head on the ground, from the Big Book -
We have come to believe He would like us to keep our heads in the clouds with Him, but that our feet ought to be firmly planted on earth. That is where our fellow travelers are, and that is where our work must be done. These are the realities for us. We have found nothing incompatible between a powerful spiritual experience and a life of sane and happy usefulness.

...the speaker actually specifically stated that when he finds he's "thinking for others" its usually time to take a step back and look at his own thinking again since he used to do the "thinking for others" when he was drinking. Shows you how we all look at things differently

And if you had asked him to explain further, he would probably have said that does not apply to discussing what's best for AA in general, and newcomers in particular, that's a duty recovered alcoholics have.
Anyways, ive actually now filed this particular discussion in my "finished box".

Just like in the one where you couldn't get much support for your opinion that everyone who had any type of problem should attend meetings, you just wished that I might wake the next day more enlightened, or some such remark. Spiritual books, especially those by Eckhart Tolle and others I have seen, speak about the practice of unenlightened people when they are loosing an argument saying things like “OK you are right end of discussion,” when of course they are being sarcastic. This is not much different and is nonspiritual and immature, you really shouldn't misquote others or dismiss AA literature in attempting to get a point of view over, and then realizing you are on thin ice basically say I am taking my ball and going home, better to bow out gracefully or say nothing at all.

If I were saying this face to face, which I would do given the opportunity, you might see it is not being done in a spiteful or unfriendly way.
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Layne » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:39 am

It has been work, but once again a thread has proved to be a forest of growth material once I got past the trees. I cannot express my gratitude for this program enough. It will never cease to amaze me. The work required for growth pales in comparison to the rewards reaped.
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Noels » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:19 am

All this bless you and teddy bear and unconditional love, is just someone who when faced with an official AA stand on a matter, realizing it makes their own opinion less attractive, resorts to silliness, and talking about head on the ground, from the Big Book
:lol: :lol: :lol: oh bless you big teddy bear you made me laugh after a really crappy day :lol: :lol: :lol: you're the one who mentioned the heart and the head in the clouds and the feet not on the ground so don't put your words on my response now. Sies man! Skaam vir jou!

And if you had asked him to explain further, he would probably have said that does not apply to discussing what's best for AA in general, and newcomers in particular, that's a duty recovered alcoholics have.
:D :D :D I was chairing the meeting so he was sitting right next to me dearest. No need to doubt my hearing and understanding ability :D I am familiar with this "put the other person on the defence tactic". You seem to forget I work in a legal office and am married to a litigation lawyer :D

I have many opinions. Opinions in AA does not count. What I gave you is facts and food for thought hoping you would actually use your pip and stretch that limited thinking for once. Oh sorry .... you're quite right - twice now I did that. Clearly there's not enough room for stretching

and newcomers in particular, that's a duty recovered alcoholics have.
:D :D :D "pulling rank" does not work in AA as whether you are 6 years sober and I am 6 hours sober you are just as close to a drink as I may be. At the end of the day we are both two drunks trying to stay sober. :P :P :P Gosh -its like talking to a 18 month old having to explain everything to you ???

Spiritual books, especially those by Eckhart Tolle and others I have seen, speak about the practice of unenlightened people when they are loosing an argument saying things like “OK you are right end of discussion
Don't you think you're doing Eckhart Tolle a disservice in quoting this? I remember many posts where you said in your own words that you find Eckhart Tolle difficult to understand. I'm sure I could find those posts if you wish to deny it? I clearly remember you even saying that you didn't understand it by simply listening so you even got the book to follow while listening? Hehehehehehe - joke's on you bro :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyways, thanks for a good laugh. I'm off for the night. A hectic day await tomorrow.

luv ya! mwah xxx Noels
Sleep tight :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Reborn » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:51 am

You're putting words in my mouth...I never said or even implied that anyone who walks through the doors is a waste of time.

Oh? my humble apology. I clearly misinterpreted that is refering to Ebby and 3 members of the Oxford group approaching a judge....they got Ebby out of going to jail...and guess what Ebby didn't stay sober. Perhaps I should have asked (which I'm doing now) what you meant by these words then?[quote/]

If you have read any of AA's history you would know that Ebby could never stay sober for very long. He is a perfect example of what we're talking about here. I am definitely very grateful he met with Bill but Ebby was in and out of sobriety for the remainder of his life and eventually died sober. The point I'm trying to make is until a person reaches a jumping off place, a place where drinking is no longer an option they will eventually go back to the drink...they never fully concede they are real alcoholics.

I carry the message regardless of the crowd gathered at a meeting. What I did say is there will always be folks who are at meetings to simply get a slip signed. Who are not there to hear a solution. Who are just there to jump through the hoop. Perhaps this doesn't happen where you are in the world but it happens in the states a lot.

Here again I must have misinterpreted? So you are actually saying you carry the message regardless of the crowd gathered inside already sitting down?

Yes I am saying I carry the message regardless...not sure what the question is here?

I don't need you to widen my view...perhaps you need to widen your view. As Brock said AA is not all puppy dogs and lolipops...I and many others are on a life death errand here. If you can't see that some people in AA and just there jumping through hoops(most of those are people mandated to be there by the court) you definitely need to widen your view.
We have recovered, and have been given the power to help others. BB pg 132
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Noels » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:19 pm

Anyways, ive actually now filed this particular discussion in my "finished box". I do want to thank all the participants though as I truly enjoyed this discussion

Have a good evening and talk again soon


Nite Nite :D
mwah xxxx Noels
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby ezdzit247 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:59 pm

The way I see it is that the courts make it so easy for us to possibly get the message to that alcoholic by 'entrusting them to our custody ' (as in the BB ) but by our ignorance or bad attitude we, rather than embrace the opportunity we waste the opportunity?

How is that ' helping the still suffering alcoholic '?


I totally agree on all points, Noels.... =biggrin

Here's the "official AA position" on the topic of court referrals from the AA pamphlet entitled "How A.A. Members Cooperate With Professionals -- Cooperation, but not affiliation :

6. We cannot discriminate against any prospective A.A. member, even if he or she comes to us under pressure from a court, an employer, or any other agency. Although the strength of our program lies in the voluntary nature of membership in A.A.,many of us first attended meetings because we were forced to, either by someone else or by our inner discomfort. But continual exposure to A.A. educated us to the true nature of our illness. We then developed a desire for a happy, sober life like that of other members we saw, and we attended meetings willingly and with gratitude.

So we have no right to withhold the A.A.message from anyone—no matter who referred that person to us, or what his or her attitude is at first. Who made the referral to A.A. is not what A.A. is interested in. It is the problem drinker who is our concern. Regardless of our initial opinion of any newcomer, we cannot predict who will recover, nor have we the authority to decide how recovery should be sought by any other alcoholic. Some of us need different kinds of help, and it may come best from non-A.A. sources, as pointed out in Alcoholics Anonymous (p. 74) and Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (p. 61).


I also liked bullet point #7 in this same AA pamphet:

7. As we mature in A.A., we generally become less fearful and less rigid. Those of us blessed with recovery in A.A. need to remember that modesty will win more friends for A.A. than smugness, arrogance, or a know-it-all attitude. Saying “We know the only way to recovery” is an egotistical luxury we can no more afford than we can afford resentments. However, shortly after we come into A.A. and begin to recover, we naturally feel great relief. We may find ourselves praised; within A.A., we begin to build a good reputation, which gradually replaces the shame of our drinking days. This can easily turn into highly intense gratitude and loyalty to A.A. Then, almost before we know it, we may find ourselves sounding possessive and sensitive about A.A.—as if it were an exclusive society with a monopoly on the truth. As recovery continues, we recall that thousands of us received aid from families and friends, a hospital or a clinic, a physician or a professional counselor. We realize that the boss who fired us, the relatives who scolded us, or the cop who warned us also helped us—helped us see we had a drinking problem. We begin to outgrow our defensive possessiveness. With no less devotion to A.A., but without our former fanaticism, we start to lose our fear that some non-A.A. program or professional will usurp A.A.’s role, or take away our newly found pride, gratitude, and other good
feelings. The longer we A.A. members stay sober, the more likely it is that we will say,“Anything that works toward recovery for the alcoholic is good, and this includes hospitals, rehabilitation centers, state or provincial alcoholism centers, religion, and psychiatry—as well as A.A. ”Perhaps we become more “attractive” examples of what A.A. can do, in line with our Tradition Eleven.
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby PaigeB » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:15 pm

Moderator: Please refrain from the back & forth arguments.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
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Re: Nothing but Nudge from the Judgers

Postby Spirit Flower » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:12 pm

When I lived in a small town in Kansas, I didn't go to meetings there because for sure there would be court appointeds and they would break my anonymity. I was in management in the only plant in town, and it wouldn't have mattered that I had over 20 years of sobriety to them who were going to get drunk again and hang out at a local bar. So I drove 50 miles to a city once a week and went to a meeting.
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