Putting Out an Individual

Is the concept of a Home Group dying? What is a Home Group anyway? Talk about it here.

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Patsy© » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:23 pm

Blue Moon wrote:
Patsy© wrote:So AA's 3rd Tradition says WE are AA MEMBERS when we say so. Which means no one can kick us out of , or keep us out of AA AS A WHOLE.....but we can certainly keep someone out of an AA group or an AA meeting ..... all it takes is a Group Conscience Vote!


The Third Tradition states "Any two or three alcoholics may call themselves an AA Group provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation".

If Group Conscience deliberately usurps AA Traditions, then sooner or later it can (and often will) unravel and cease to function. Traditions contain no ego... the same cannot be said of many a Group Conscience I've been in.

Yet fundamentally, there's a difference between the AA Group and attending the AA meeting. I'm not a member of an AA Group just because I turn up at a meeting there. I also don't cease to be a member of my home group just because I go away for 2 weeks.

So a person can be ejected from an AA meeting, yet still be a member of the Group which hosted that meeting. They're a member if they say they are. It's just a bit hard to stay an active member if they don't turn up, for whatever reason.



A person can be ejected from any AA group or AA meeting, and they are still a member of Alcoholics Anonymous if they say so..... they just have to find another AA group or AA meeting to join and/or attend or start an AA meeting or AA group, all it takes is a resentment and a coffeepot! lol
When someone is ejected from an AA group or an AA meeting, that by no means usurps any AA Tradition. And let me assure you that pulling a gun at an AA Group or an AA meeting and threatening someone with it.... will without a doubt END an AA group or AA meeting..... quicker than anything else that I know of.
Failed 12 Step Call? Not if we walk away sober!
User avatar
Patsy©
Forums Contributor
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Blue Moon » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:35 pm

If you say so.

I just prefer the Tradition as-written, not with your spin on it.
Ian S
AKA Blue Moon
User avatar
Blue Moon
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3563
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Patsy© » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:15 am

Blue Moon wrote:If you say so.

I just prefer the Tradition as-written, not with your spin on it.


Perhaps what you do not recognize is that its your spin that is not only off, its incorrect!
Failed 12 Step Call? Not if we walk away sober!
User avatar
Patsy©
Forums Contributor
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Blue Moon » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:34 pm

Have a read of the long-form Tradition 3, then come back and we can have a mature conversation about it.
Ian S
AKA Blue Moon
User avatar
Blue Moon
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3563
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Patsy© » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:16 pm

Blue Moon wrote:Have a read of the long-form Tradition 3, then come back and we can have a mature conversation about it.


Actually, the 12 Traditions are in order for a vital reason, they build on one another. I have been attending 12 Traditions meetings for 28 years and although I don't know everything, I have learned that every group manages its affairs as it pleases, except when A.A. as a whole is threatened.

Again, an AA member can't be put out of AA as a whole, but certainly can be put out of an AA group or an AA meeting.

This is a link from aa.org that can be very helpful with information or informing AA members about "Safety and AA: Our Common Welfare" I am pretty sure that aa.org is more than very familiar with the 12 Traditions. lol
https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-209_en.pdf

Here is another link from aa.org, its the Safety Card for AA groups. It states that taking action to insure safety at an AA group or AA meeting does not go against any AA Tradition.
https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/f-211_S ... Groups.pdf



Our A.A. experience has taught us that:


Tradition 1 - Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

Without unity, A.A. dies.
Individual liberty, yet great unity.
Key to paradox: each A.A.'s life depends on obedience to spiritual principles.
The group must survive or the individual will not.
Common welfare comes first.
How best to live and work together as groups.


Tradition 2 - For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

Where does A.A. get its direction?
Sole authority in A.A. is loving God as He may express Himself in the group conscience.
Formation of a group.
Growing pains.
Rotating committees are the servants of the group.
Leaders do not govern, they serve.

Does A.A. have a real leadership?
"Elder statesmen" and "bleeding deacons."
The group conscience speaks.

Tradition 3 - The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

Early intolerance based on fear.
To take away any alcoholic's chance at A.A. was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence.
Membership regulations abandoned.
Two examples of experience.
Any alcoholic is a member of A.A. when he says so.

Tradition 4 - Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

Every group manages its affairs as it pleases, except when A.A. as a whole is threatened.
Is such liberty dangerous?
The groups, like the individual, must eventually conform to principles that guarantee survival.

Two storm signals - a group ought not do anything which would injure A.A. as a whole, nor affiliate with outside interests.
An example: the "A.A. Center" that didn't work.


Tradition 5 - Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

Better do one thing well than many badly.
The life of our Fellowship depends on this principle.
The ability of each A.A. to identify himself with and bring recovery to the newcomer is a gift from God . . .
passing on this gift to others is our aim.
Sobriety can't be kept unless it is given away.

Tradition 6 - An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

Experience proved that we could not endorse any related enterprise, no matter how good.
We could not be all things to all men.
We saw that we could not lend the A.A. name to any outside activity.

Tradition 7 - Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

No A.A. Tradition had the labor pains this one did.
Collective poverty initially a matter of necessity.
Fear of exploitation.
Decision to subsist on A.A. voluntary contributions only.
Placing the responsibility of supporting A.A. headquarters directly upon A.A. members.
Bare running expenses plus a prudent reserve is headquarter's policy.

Tradition 8 -Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

You can't mix the Twelfth Step and money.
Line of cleavage between voluntary Twelfth Step work and paid-for services.
A.A. could not function without full-time service workers.
Professional workers are not professional A.A..'s
Relation of A.A. to industry, education, etc.
Twelfth Step work is never paid for, but those who labor in service for us ar worthy of their hire.

Tradition 9 - A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

Special service boards and committees.
The General Service Conference, the board of trustees, and group committees cannot issue directives to A.A. members or groups.
A.A.'s can't be dictated to - individually or collectively.
Absence of coercion works because unless each A.A. follows suggested steps of recovery, he signs his own death warrant.
Same condition applies to the group.
Suffering and love are A.A.'s disciplinarians.
Difference between spirit of authority and spirit of service.
Aim of our services is to bring sobriety within reach of all who want it.

Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

A.A. does not take sides in any public controversy.
Reluctance to fight is not a special virtue.
Survival and spread of A.A. are our primary aims.
Lessons learned from Washingtonian movement

Tradition 11 - Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

Public relations are important to A.A.
Good public relations save lives.
We seek publicity for A.A. principles, not A.A. members.
The press has cooperated.
Personal anonymity at the public level is the cornerstone of our public relations policy.
Eleventh Tradition is a constant reminder that personal ambition has no place in A.A.
Each member becomes an active guardian of our Fellowship.

Tradition 12 - Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Spiritual substance of anonymity is sacrifice.
Subordinating personal aims to the common good is the essence of all Twelve Traditions.
Why A.A. could not remain a secret society.
Principles come before personalities.
One hundred percent anonymity at the public level.
Anonymity is real humility.
Last edited by Patsy© on Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
Failed 12 Step Call? Not if we walk away sober!
User avatar
Patsy©
Forums Contributor
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Patsy© » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:19 pm

The Twelve Traditions - Long Form


One - Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward.

Two - For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

Three - Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend on money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

Four - With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority other than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.

Five - Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose - that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

Six - Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business. Secondary aids to A.A. such as clubs or hospitals which require much property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well outside A.A. - and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never to go so far as affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind itself to no one.

Seven - The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous whether by groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies, that acceptance of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any obligation whatever, is unwise. Then, too, we view with much concern those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

Eight - Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional. We define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to perform those services for which we might otherwise have to engage non alcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our usual A.A. Twelfth Step work is never to be paid for.

Nine - Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating leadership is the best. The small group may elect its secretary, the large group its rotating committee, and the groups of a large metropolitan area their central or intergroup committee, which often employs a full-time secretary. The trustees of the General Service Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A. contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office in New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our overall public relations, and they guarantee the integrity of our principal newspaper, the A.A. Grapevine. All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is the key to their usefulness.

Ten - No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues - particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatsoever.

Eleven - Our relations with the general public should be characterized by personal anonymity. We think A.A. should avoid sensational advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better that our friends recommend us.

Twelve - And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the principle of anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that we are to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.
Last edited by Patsy© on Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Failed 12 Step Call? Not if we walk away sober!
User avatar
Patsy©
Forums Contributor
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Brock » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:57 am

Thanks for this information Patsy. In your first post you have a heading 'The Twelve Traditions -Long Form,' and in the second post 'Our AA experience has taught us that:' I think you mistakenly put the headings under the wrong posts, so the second post is in fact the long forms as appears in the 12 & 12.

So under # 3 the long form is -
Three - Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend on money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

And Experience has taught us -
Tradition 3 - The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

Early intolerance based on fear.
To take away any alcoholic's chance at A.A. was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence.
Membership regulations abandoned.
Two examples of experience.
Any alcoholic is a member of A.A. when he says so.

I believe what Blue Moon is trying to drive home is that the person has a right to say they are a member, and since they're a member if they say they are, then in the spirit of the tradition the gunslinger is still a member.

He could stand on the pavement at the church entrance and tell people coming in 'I’m a member of that group,' of course they might ask why he doesn’t come in, if he is honest he will say I pulled a gun on somebody and they banned me from attending, the person will (hopefully) think the group was right in it's actions. So what do we do with the part which says he is a member if he says he is. As has been said he is still a member of AA, but as far as your group is concerned, he is no longer a member with the right to attend that particular groups meetings.

In you original post on this you said - “At our AA group, we had an AA group member pull a gun and threaten someone at the AA meeting.” I took that to mean member with voting rights at group conscience and doing service etc. so it's the members home group. I am a member of just one group, but I visit several as a member of AA, so the word 'member' causes confusion.

I don't think anyone could fault the group for banning him, but if he was in fact a 'member,' he can stand outside and say he's a member if he wishes, or if he wasn’t a 'member,' he can still say I'm a member of AA but that group won't let me attend, I don't see a big deal either way.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."
User avatar
Brock
Forums Coordinator
 
Posts: 3163
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Patsy© » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:40 am

Brock wrote:Thanks for this information Patsy. In your first post you have a heading 'The Twelve Traditions -Long Form,' and in the second post 'Our AA experience has taught us that:' I think you mistakenly put the headings under the wrong posts, so the second post is in fact the long forms as appears in the 12 & 12.

So under # 3 the long form is -
Three - Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend on money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

And Experience has taught us -
Tradition 3 - The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

Early intolerance based on fear.
To take away any alcoholic's chance at A.A. was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence.
Membership regulations abandoned.
Two examples of experience.
Any alcoholic is a member of A.A. when he says so.

I believe what Blue Moon is trying to drive home is that the person has a right to say they are a member, and since they're a member if they say they are, then in the spirit of the tradition the gunslinger is still a member.

He could stand on the pavement at the church entrance and tell people coming in 'I’m a member of that group,' of course they might ask why he doesn’t come in, if he is honest he will say I pulled a gun on somebody and they banned me from attending, the person will (hopefully) think the group was right in it's actions. So what do we do with the part which says he is a member if he says he is. As has been said he is still a member of AA, but as far as your group is concerned, he is no longer a member with the right to attend that particular groups meetings.

In you original post on this you said - “At our AA group, we had an AA group member pull a gun and threaten someone at the AA meeting.” I took that to mean member with voting rights at group conscience and doing service etc. so it's the members home group. I am a member of just one group, but I visit several as a member of AA, so the word 'member' causes confusion.

I don't think anyone could fault the group for banning him, but if he was in fact a 'member,' he can stand outside and say he's a member if he wishes, or if he wasn’t a 'member,' he can still say I'm a member of AA but that group won't let me attend, I don't see a big deal either way.



Thank you Brock, I just fixed it! lol I have this copied in my AA history files. I must have copied the titles wrong, again, Thank you :)

"I believe what Blue Moon is trying to drive home is that the person has a right to say they are a member, and since they're a member if they say they are, then in the spirit of the tradition the gunslinger is still a member."


Brock, I believe that I had already established the above, he is an AA member if he says so... of AA as a Whole, not a member of our AA group any longer. And the church also banned him from coming on their property, which I think I mentioned already. Which means all the AA meetings being held at this church, including our AA group.... this AA member is banned from.

I hear what he is trying to say, but his interpretation of the AA Traditions with regards to banning a member is incorrect. If you click on those two links that come directly from the Alcoholics Anonymous site, its clear what the individual AA member, the AA group and the AA meeting can do if a safety issue arises. And yes, the AA member who is banned from that AA group or that AA meeting, can go and stand where he chooses and yell at the top of his lungs that he is an AA member and that would be true, but he can't do it from inside the AA group or AA meeting that he is banned from.

And yes, its a no brainer as far as I am concerned and apparently as far as Alcoholics Anonymous is concerned that when something as dangerous as a gun is pulled IN an AA meeting or an AA group and members are threatened, as it was in our AA group.... than they can to do whatever is necessary to keep the AA group, the AA meeting and the AA members SAFE....which can include banning the gun toting AA member....without breaking any AA Traditions.

Thanks again Brock, I love the way you communicate, its solid..... where would this site be without you :)
Failed 12 Step Call? Not if we walk away sober!
User avatar
Patsy©
Forums Contributor
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Blue Moon » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:31 am

Patsy© wrote:every group manages its affairs as it pleases, except when A.A. as a whole is threatened.


This is true. Tradition 4 gives every group the right to be wrong. This doesn't make them right, it just gives them the autonomy to do whatever they want - even the right to break with the spirit of almost all of AA's Traditions.

The problem only arises when they start telling other groups that's how they should conduct business.
Ian S
AKA Blue Moon
User avatar
Blue Moon
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3563
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Putting Out an Individual

Postby Patsy© » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:19 am

Blue Moon wrote:
Patsy© wrote:every group manages its affairs as it pleases, except when A.A. as a whole is threatened.


This is true. Tradition 4 gives every group the right to be wrong. This doesn't make them right, it just gives them the autonomy to do whatever they want - even the right to break with the spirit of almost all of AA's Traditions.

The problem only arises when they start telling other groups that's how they should conduct business.


Yes, that is true! I am not sure why you have decided to change the subject, but no one here was talking about telling other AA groups how they should conduct business.....No One!

Yes, every AA group has the right to be wrong, however what it says in Tradition 4 is with respect to its own affairs, each AA group should be responsible to no other authority other than its own conscience.

Tradition Four Long Form - With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority other than its own conscience.But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.


Again, an AA group or an AA meeting can ban an AA member, all they need is an AA Group Conscience and that wouldn't concern the welfare of neighboring groups.
Its a serious move to ban an AA member from an AA meeting or an AA group and its not about being right.... its about keeping the AA Group, the AA meeting and the AA members SAFE!

According to aa.org, taking actions that will keep an AA group, an AA meeting and AA members SAFE....doesn't break with any of the AA's Traditions ....spirit or otherwise.
Failed 12 Step Call? Not if we walk away sober!
User avatar
Patsy©
Forums Contributor
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Previous

Return to The Home Group

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest