Disturbing member

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Re: Disturbing member

Postby PowerOfNow » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:47 am

Thx for all shares about this subject but I still havnt got any answer if there is
much difference in spiritual sick or sick in your soul.
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby ann2 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:51 am

That's an individual, subjective evaluation. I am not sure why it's important to know if there is a difference, could you repeat the motivation behind wanting to get an answer here?

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Re: Disturbing member

Postby GaryD » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:04 pm

PowerOfNow wrote:Thx for all shares about this subject but I still havnt got any answer if there is
much difference in spiritual sick or sick in your soul.


I refrained from discussing this up to this point due to the nature of debate that usually ensues when these topics arise in groups of people on a public forum. I have decided that I will offer you some of my understanding regarding the topic and let you decide for yourself whether it resounds as true or not. I am not here to debate the topic.

Spiritual sickness is a sickness of the soul. They are one and the same. That which is spiritual in nature fully interacts with that which is natural. The problem of understanding such revolves around how one defines the words 'soul' and 'spirit'. Knowing that your a follower of Ekhart Tolle, I understand that you are open to all facets of religion and spirituality in a quest to find that which is true. The bible is an excellent reference for dealing with accepted definitions of words due to the long history of it's existence and the translations across languages. The etymology of the words helps to understand how they have been seen by others over history.

The translators of the KJV bible translated ψυχή as soul which is where our word 'psyche' comes from in the Greek whereas πνεῦμα is translated 'spirit' and is where we get our word 'pnema' from which deals with air. The general understanding that comes from a study of the two words reveals that those who wrote across history in the areas of Judaism and Christianity understood the words to be the breath which gives life and the life that is produced by that breath given, both being separate entities.

In more modern times, cultures are assimilating the two together and removing the distinction. I have come to accept the two as separate yet able to be joined together having a certain affect upon each other. I see myself as a soul who has a spirit and lives inside a body where anything that affects one aspect of my being bleeds over into the others. Of course, I am open to refine my understanding provided I am introduced to previously unknown information. I hope this helps in some way without stirring up debate.
By the grace of God using the fellowship of AA and the twelves steps I have not picked up a drink since October 6th, 2002.

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Re: Disturbing member

Postby Tosh » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:48 am

Nice post, Gary. I read the same as in the original meaning of the word 'spirit' was breath, though I didn't read it at the depth you have. It was explained in the piece I read that 'breath' was the difference between living creatures and dead things and it didn't literally mean the air we inhale/exhale, but was used more like we use the words consciousness or the mind.

Then later Abrahamic religions added a connotation to the word with the soul.

So 'to be spiritual' can simply mean 'working with the mind', changing old attitudes and behaviours. Isn't a nick-name for A.A. 'Attitude Adjusters'?

Makes sense to me.
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby Squawking Hawk » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:47 am

I posted my reply without acknowledging the OP question asking englishborn members if it is wrong in translating "spiritual sick" as being sick in your soul. I am sorry that I don't know enough about the question the OP is raising to provide an answer, and I'm not familiar with Eckhart Tolle. And I'm glad for the responses that I have read, I have learned something.

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Squawking Hawk wrote:I've enjoyed reading the shares on this thread. I too have been to my share of meetings with "disturbing members." Sometimes the best thing for me to do is to say a silent prayer and after saying my silent prayer I often find that I can listen and not get involved in whatever the disturbance is. Most of the time the disturbance is verbal so this works.

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Re: Disturbing member

Postby Marc L » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:29 am

Here is An exerpt from something I posted in the Men's area and it did get some laughs.

'Sometimes a S**Disturber can be beneficial.'
Lighten up... :D

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Re: Disturbing member

Postby Db1105 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:35 am

I know that if I heard my "soul" was sick when I first came into the rooms of AA, my sorry butt would of been out the door. When you talk "soul", you talk religion. If religion was involved in recovery, I wouldn't be here. How that translates in to Swedish, I don't know.

As for the disturbing member sharing his experience, strength and hope, unless they are threatening or violent, you really can't do anything except share your own experience, strength and hope. The best thing to do is grab the newcomer after the meeting and explain how AA works. We don't shoot our wounded, both not drinking or drinking. Love and tolerance are the key.
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby John ace » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:32 pm

PowerOfNow wrote:When I use google translater for "spirit" into swedish it says both spirit and soul.
So I ask you englishborn members if its much wrong in translating "spiritual sick"
as being sick in your soul ?
My "teacher" Eckhart Tolle says the spirit or the "I am" is always unchanged and
cannot get sick but the soul can. So please tell me what you think about this
translation. Isnt it a bit academic hairsplitting like we say in Sweden ?

That's not entirely true,if you're sole is sick you can see it in the way people behave ( see there spirit behave badly) if the sole isn't in pain the spirit is content and the person is happy.
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby otterlynn2 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:50 pm

"I am here because I have the innate desire to control everyone and everything in life as a natural part of my person. Over the years of active addiction I developed a twisted and sick pleasure out of judging and criticizing everyone I see. I had assumed the role of God and needed to quit playing God before I could get any relief from being disturbed by everyone else's personally perceived poor behavior."

Learning how to maneuver the forum technology!

Love what I see here: I hear a lot at meetings, "I am powerless over people, places and things": What I had to really accept deep down in step three is that I am powerless over a mind that thinks I have power over people places and things. It says in how it works, "and there seems to be no way of entirely getting rid of self without his aid...God makes this possible" - I am powerless over my unmanageable thought life and need to treat my illness with God. When I accepted this about myself (oh and by the way, this didn't sink in for a long long time - read and re-read the book) I was able to have that part of my illness stop being a moral issue too - just like the physical and the mental obsession. I am a really sick person who needs help urgently.

Today when someone in my group isn't "doing it right" I can ask God to relieve me of the bondage of self, to help me be okay right here right now and maybe hear something in the share that I would not expect; help me put aside everything I think I know about this person's share so I can have a new experience in the day I am in. Thanks!
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby Lali » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:08 pm

PowerOfNow wrote:We have a disturbing member in my homegroup in Stockholm. Many members quit my group becauce of him. Every meeting he share the same thing that can be very confusing for newcomers. He says the big book is wrongly translated from english to swedish. Its about our threefolded decease, physical, mental and spiritual. In the swedish big book we read that also our souls are sick but this member goes on and say its not the soul but the spirit. I think a newcomer is not helped by this discussion, they come becauce they need help and dont care about translations. Also its boring to listen to same story everyday and its also told in a very "preaching" way. Any suggestions how to handle this situation. This guy is also very hard to talk to, very stubborn and can easily get agressive. Many good members get bored and go to other groups but this group have been my home for 7 years and its sad to see how one person can do so much harm.


I think there is one of these people in nearly every group. Our guy also shares the same thing every time (as if we have forgotten what he said before again and again and again. Our sharing is supposed to end at 10:50 for giving out chips and closing the meeting. 99% of the time, he chooses to start his share at 10:55 and always runs over the 5 minute limit we have set for sharing. He usually drones on and one until the chair interrups him. I truly think he does this to p%$ss everyone off. He holds what he wants to say to the very last minute when he has an entire 45 minutes after the readings to share. he shares the same thing at every meeting, a lot of which is about his health and his mail order bride, He's always off topic but the thing that really bothers me is that he usually shares that he only worked a few of the steps. I feel that is totally inappropriate given that we have a lot of newcomers just hanging by a thread and cannot afford to get this kind of information. The other day, I was going to share the importance of all of the steps, right after this guy's share, but before I got called on, one of the newer girls in the program beat me to it. He has been taken out side and the person(s) who take him out, usually do not speak quietly. Someone here suggested discussing this with the group conscience. Does this guy even attend the group conscience? And what is the point in discussing this incident if the "perpetrator" is not there? Whenever our guy speaks, no less than 5 people get up and leave the room. I use the time to make up my grocery list, lest I lose my mind. There must be a better solution, like taking your man aside and explaining the problem to him. Or suspending him for going against the group conscience. Anyway, I wish good luck to the OP here.
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby Lali » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:33 pm

GaryD wrote:
JohnZ wrote:Another wonderful post, Gary. I've copied your insights into my AA journal, because this sort of situation arises from time to time, and I've been to several business meetings during which the discussion centered around individuals that were misleading newcomers. If the matter should arise again, as I know it will, I'm going to reread your post to remind myself of the proper perspective.


Hi JohnZ! God is good isn't he? Once I was able to understand that we are merely servants who are guided, or misguided, through our mind and emotions, I was able to humbly begin to sort out and seek out those thoughts that lead to sound decisions rooted in fact rather than seeking comfort from uneasy feelings or fears.

We have a couple choices when dealing with people. We can impose our will upon others in an attempt to control what they are doing in an attempt to benefit the whole or we can seek to convince others that they would be better off if they chose to behave in a different manner. There is a time and place for each method. Sorting out when to do what is why we have progress rather than perfection.

Wayne B shared in his lead of an experience he had 4 1/2 years in recovery. He says that he was still drinking and attending meetings. His sponsor, Barney, had told him "you know this program works better if you don't drink?" And at that moment something in Wayne's mind snapped and he drew his gun from his ankle and fired a round off at Barney's head. If Barney were six inches taller, he would be six feet under. According to Wayne, other members of the group then gave him some good old 'AA group therapy' and he was covered in bruises when he came too in the psyche ward the following morning. He said "it worked! I never did that again". Here is an example of what I perceive to be the best use of the will to control what another is doing at an AA meeting. I believe the 'group conscience' was to immediately suppress the threat and bring things under control quickly.

The second method was applied by Barney the next morning as he visited Wayne in the hospital, Wayne in 6 point restraints. He showed up and told Wayne that he wasn't sure if Wayne was simply a psychopath or not but that he was sure that he could recover from his alcoholism if he would work the steps of recovery. He never mentioned Wayne's poor behavior from the day before. That was what struck Wayne the hardest as living proof of the program of recovery. Barney had loved him unconditionally without berating him for his actions. He accepted that Wayne was spiritually sick and did not expect Wayne to act right unless he could begin the treatment process though the steps.

It was another six months before Wayne took his last drink and stayed continuously sober after that. He did not deserve that which he was given and that is why it is called grace. I am effectively in pursuit of receiving the grace, mercy, love, peace, joy, patience, meekness, gentleness, goodness and self-control of our God so that I can freely give them to others and bring healing to the whole. Without God I am nothing but through him I may be able to have the discernment necessary to understand when to implement the proper method to enact change in another for the purpose of edification. But I must work to hear his 'voice' when he speaks.


Ch. 1 Bill's Story wrote:... I was to test my thinking by the new god-consciousness within. Common sense would thus become uncommon sense. I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking only for direction and strength to meet my problems as He would have me. Never was I to pray for myself, except as my requests bore on my usefulness to others. Then only might I expect to receive. But that would be in great measure.


May we both continue to grow in effectiveness in our pursuit!


DID YOU LET HIM COME BACK? My group suspended a woman from our group for a year for throwing hot coffee on another member. You are putting all members in danger. I would get a lock for the door that requires a code that everyone but he knows. I would also get a restraining order that he not be allowed near your meeting for several hundred yards. Unless you have your own building, you are also putting outside people (as in church people who may be present in the building for whatever the reason). IMO this is totally unacceptable. Future groups looking for a meeting place may have a difficult time due to this horror story that I'm pretty sure got around. Sure this man needs AA but he really needs anger management and probation for several years. If you want him to have access to AA meetings, one very brave sole could meet with him one on one. No need to put anyone else in harms way.
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby tomsteve » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:48 am

PowerOfNow wrote:Thx for all shares about this subject but I still havnt got any answer if there is
much difference in spiritual sick or sick in your soul.


A rather old thread, but a good read.

IMO no difference.

Dr bob said something about gettin all Freudian and how good that doesn't work.
No need to take a simple program and turn in into something requiring quantum mechanics to solve.

Live and let live.
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby Lali » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:48 pm

I apologize for my rant. This subject is so emotional to me (obviously) (because of the similar problem in one of my meetings) that I didn't even realize how old this thread is. I know I shouldn't let it get to me but sometimes I just want to screeeeeeeeeeeeam when this man starts talking. One thing is for sure, these types of situations teach us patience and tolerance and I obviously need to work on that in this type of situation.
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby Stepchild » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:35 am

I enjoyed your rant....You don't have to apologize to me. We have a guy in one meeting I go to..That shared..."This isn't a program about God...Or the steps...This is a program about not drinking one day at a time.." About 60 people in this meeting...A lot of newcomers. Did I just sit back and let this guy get away with that?....Hell no. I carried the message. Like I am supposed to do. I let him have it.

When I was leaving the meeting a lady approached me and asked if I would speak at her home group. I accepted and was able to share with about 150 people. Sometimes it is our responsibility to the newcomer to not let them be led astray. It could be the difference between living and dying for someone. That's a big responsibility.

Spirit or soul?

Soul: the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.

Looks like the same animal to me.
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Re: Disturbing member

Postby tomsteve » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:54 am

Stepchild wrote:I enjoyed your rant....You don't have to apologize to me. We have a guy in one meeting I go to..That shared..."This isn't a program about God...Or the steps...This is a program about not drinking one day at a time.." About 60 people in this meeting...A lot of newcomers. Did I just sit back and let this guy get away with that?....Hell no. I carried the message. Like I am supposed to do. I let him have it.

When I was leaving the meeting a lady approached me and asked if I would speak at her home group. I accepted and was able to share with about 150 people. Sometimes it is our responsibility to the newcomer to not let them be led astray. It could be the difference between living and dying for someone. That's a big responsibility.

Spirit or soul?

Soul: the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.

Looks like the same animal to me.



It would be nice to find out how the hell this man thinks not drinking one day at a time is achieved and apparently doesn't understand the last part of the 12th step or The 5th tradition, which the message is supposed to be that of how we recovered using the program.
Please tell him for me I thnk his misinformation may very well kill someone and if he doesn't like the way AA is he is free to write a book, get a coffee pot and start another recovery program.
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