Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Most of us who recovered with AA's program did so with the help of a "sponsor". But what is sponsorship? How do I get one? Who can be a sponsor? What makes a good sponsor?

Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby Brock » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:55 pm

Spirit Flower wrote:But some people say they need a god with skin.


That statement carries a lot of weight, very well put.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby Service » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:51 pm

Why is everyone so CO-Dependent ? What happen to A.A.s promises that one will intuitively handle situations that use to baffle them ? - That there is only ONE - that one is God may you find him know ? That A.A is an inside job ? - The outside temperance sponsorship system easily separated people from from the A.A spiritual program with promotional ritual of CO_DEPENDENCIES religious institutional governMental ways here it all goes again this time sober. Whats wrong with doing it in the way in the 164 Pages of the Big Book -Page 86 tells you what is needed through the day, funny it's om page 86 that's what happens to all co dependents - Google "A.A sponsorship out of control" and listen to all the ones that the outside GovernMental system had and ran off - :shock: They all had to go somewhere, Take a closer look if your arrogance lets you !!
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby leejosepho » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:40 am

Service wrote:Why is everyone so CO-Dependent ?

I have been trying to figure out what this thread is actually about, and I think it is this:

"...the broker had been relieved of his drink obsession by a sudden spiritual experience...had learned [from Silkworth] the grave nature of alcoholism...convinced of...the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God." (Foreword to Second Edition)
"...we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God."
"...he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." (page 98)
"Remind the prospect that his recovery is not dependent upon people. It is dependent upon his relationship with God." (pages 99-100)

And yet "...personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity [with others]." (Tradition One)

So, the first necessity here is to do a bit of sorting as to the matter of so-called "co-dependency".

Characteristics of Co-dependent People Are:

An exaggerated sense of responsibility for the actions of others
A tendency to confuse love and pity, with the tendency to “love” people they can pity and rescue
A tendency to do more than their share, all of the time
A tendency to become hurt when people don’t recognize their efforts
An unhealthy dependence on relationships. The co-dependent will do anything to hold on to a relationship; to avoid the feeling of abandonment
An extreme need for approval and recognition
A sense of guilt when asserting themselves
A compelling need to control others
Lack of trust in self and/or others
Fear of being abandoned or alone
Difficulty identifying feelings
Rigidity/difficulty adjusting to change
Problems with intimacy/boundaries
Chronic anger
Lying/dishonesty
Poor communications
Difficulty making decisions

We can actually remove the term "co-dependent" altogether here since none of the above is exclusive of any human being and all of it can be addressed while taking the Steps. So then, in answer to the question:

Q: Why does everyone (some more than others, of course) at one time or another in life experience and/or display one or more of the above symptoms of spiritual sickness?

A: Because we are human beings with inherent instinctual needs for each other in common and our spiritual sickness renders us dysfunctional in relation to unity (altruism). In A.A. parlance, we can see the essence of all of that in something such as this:

"We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people..." (page 52)

Service wrote:What happen to A.A.s promises that one will intuitively handle situations that use to baffle them ? - That there is only ONE - that one is God may you find him know ? That A.A is an inside job ?

"Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics...
"Suppose now you are making your second visit to a man. He has read this volume and says he is prepared to go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of recovery. Having had the experience yourself, you can give him much practical advice." (pages 89, 96)

Asking someone as a "sponsor" to "lay out the kit of spiritual tools for [my] inspection. Show [me] how they worked with you. Offer [me] friendship and fellowship. Tell [me] that if [I want] to get well you will do anything to help" (page 95) does not in any way block me off from "A.A.s promises that one will intuitively handle situations that use to baffle them - That there is only ONE - that one is God may you find him now - That recovery in A.A. is an inside job".

Can we agree there or do you insist everything goes sour any time the word "sponsor" appears on the screen? The things I have just mentioned are definitely "doing it in the way in the 164 Pages of the Big Book".

Take a closer look if your arrogance lets you !!

Yes, please do!
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby Service » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:59 am

I keep tiring to figure out why all the Co -Dependents do not believe what the 164 pages of the Big Book had lived - why are people GovernMental instead of free and independent acting and existing instead of livening - - Must be why the Big Book states some take it into insanity and death - but if it does not pertain to the first person they figure it is talking about their shadow who cannot face the light. very entertaining at the most.
There is only 3 pertinent ideas of A.A. not always sober people catch on to A.A.s message they get wound up with story teller of their own ! Co- Dependent to the MAX!
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby leejosepho » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:31 am

Service wrote:I keep tiring to figure out why all the Co -Dependents do not believe what the 164 pages of the Big Book had lived...

How do you know they do not believe what the book says?

Service wrote: - why are [some] people GovernMental instead of free and independent...

I added "some" there because some certainly are not, but answers for that kind of question are far beyond the scope of A.A....
Human capacities are not genetically specified but emerge within processes of ontogenetic development. Moreover the circumstances of development are continually shaped through human activity. There is consequently no human nature that has escaped the current of history. . . .

This does not mean, of course, that a human being can be anything you please. But it does mean that there is no way of describing what human beings are independently of the manifold historical and environmental circumstances in which they become–in which they grow up and live out their lives.

I believe the bottom line, however, is at the point where we need each other and the Steps can show us how to grow into healthy relationships and interactions.

Service wrote:not always [do] sober people catch on to A.A.s message they get wound up with story teller of their own !

That definitely happened at first in my own case, and I could have gotten started no other way. At least for myself, my particular "grave emotional or mental disorder" includes an element of depersonalization and I never had an identity of my own. As a child, I used to stare at cars passing by on the freeway while wondering whether anyone there might be like me, and as an adult I could only ever be a chameleon of sorts while trying to fit in somewhere. When I got to A.A. at 31, I was shocked, amazed and delighted to have found a book written by people who could describe me perfectly where nobody else had ever even come close, and that gave me the courage to begin trying to "copy them" by doing what they had done to begin "living a life that is happily and usefully whole." (12&12, Foreword) It was not long at all, however, before I realized I could not even get that done without having what is know as a "sponsor" both willing and able to be "responsible for my default", as such, and thus did I ultimately discover and experience for myself what some people might describe as "what I was meant to be" or my "destiny" or whatever (even though I do not use those expressions myself).

My own observations are the same as yours in cases where "co-dependency" as known by clinicians may still need to be overcome, but "sponsor" can be a sometimes-even-the-only solution (as in my own case) for that even in spite of an occasional perpetuation.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby Niagara » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:57 am

Service wrote:Why is everyone so CO-Dependent ? What happen to A.A.s promises that one will intuitively handle situations that use to baffle them ? - That there is only ONE - that one is God may you find him know ? That A.A is an inside job ? - The outside temperance sponsorship system easily separated people from from the A.A spiritual program with promotional ritual of CO_DEPENDENCIES religious institutional governMental ways here it all goes again this time sober. Whats wrong with doing it in the way in the 164 Pages of the Big Book -Page 86 tells you what is needed through the day, funny it's om page 86 that's what happens to all co dependents - Google "A.A sponsorship out of control" and listen to all the ones that the outside GovernMental system had and ran off - :shock: They all had to go somewhere, Take a closer look if your arrogance lets you !!



I'm curious if you actually know what co dependency really is? Just going to select a few traits that might be appropriate here

a few patterns of co - dependency

think they can take care of themselves without any help from others.

express negativity or aggression in indirect and passive ways.

perceive themselves as superior to others.

have trouble setting healthy priorities and boundaries.

attempt to convince others what to think, do, or feel.

become resentful when others decline their help or reject their advice.

judge harshly what others think, say, or do.

Recognize any of those in yourself Service?

There's a whole lot more than that, if you care to look.

Co dependency isn't needing someone to fix your life for you. There's a whole lot more to it than that, if you care to put some research time in.
If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month -
Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby avaneesh912 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:00 am

Service is just one of the avatars. Thinks we don't need sponsors at all. Even once. While the 12 steps clearly has another person involved in the 5th step, this dude thinks we don't even need that, GOD will fix it for us. The ABCs is all he thinks we need.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby leejosepho » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:47 am

Service wrote:When Bill and Bob meet the steps were not even wrote yet !!

That is not true. The Oxford Groups "Steps" were being used and then those were later simply re-written into Twelve:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18041

Service wrote:...sponsors...are...unable to self sustain...

If that were true, this thread would possibly not exist. However, no spiritually-trustworthy sponsor would even try.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby avaneesh912 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:59 am

When Bill and Bob meet the steps were not even wrote yet !!


Yep, Lee has a posting on how the 4 absolutes (of oxford groups) got transformed into AAs 12 steps. Bill was a smart guy and fought with the pioneers and added few additional steps so an alcoholic can identify with the concepts and then work the reminder of the steps.

There are some great work soops you can use to learn about history. Instead of yapping about your outside sponsoring system make use of that time to learn the history.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby Service » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:01 pm

The response was done out of logic honest questions deserves honest answers when anyone fly's with the saying

"You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created. You must see the world anew.
Albert Einstein."

My question to this person was are you still drunk, Period I changed my consciousness from drinking to sober - hope that clarifies that logic before you attack again.
Second - the issue of sustainability which is important I would think, Are you going to continue your attacks as you had done in the past? or are you calling yourself A.A now?

Why are you people always on the defensive - live a little why all the seriousness over nothing - why try to make big deals to be right for what? Why are you controlling people out of fear to say something ? Are you GovernMental believers instead of A.A ?

Please don't impose your own personality here just take a closer look.
Thank you - bet you will lock this one up too !
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby Service » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:10 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Service wrote:When Bill and Bob meet the steps were not even wrote yet !!

That is not true. The Oxford Groups "Steps" were being used and then those were later simply re-written into Twelve:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18041

Service wrote:...sponsors...are...unable to self sustain...

If that were true, this thread would possibly not exist. However, no spiritually-trustworthy sponsor would even try.



OMG The bible was wrote to what are you tiring to prove here ? - Simply the 12 steps were not wrote yet -OK that's all why make this such a big deal ? Chill
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby Service » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:13 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Service wrote:When Bill and Bob meet the steps were not even wrote yet !!

That is not true. The Oxford Groups "Steps" were being used and then those were later simply re-written into Twelve:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18041

Service wrote:...sponsors...are...unable to self sustain...

If that were true, this thread would possibly not exist. However, no spiritually-trustworthy sponsor would even try.


God is a nothing here ? he even allows evil to self sustain what is your point in you comments ? to be right or something?
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby Service » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:19 pm

avaneesh912 wrote:
When Bill and Bob meet the steps were not even wrote yet !!


Yep, Lee has a posting on how the 4 absolutes (of oxford groups) got transformed into AAs 12 steps. Bill was a smart guy and fought with the pioneers and added few additional steps so an alcoholic can identify with the concepts and then work the reminder of the steps.

There are some great work soops you can use to learn about history. Instead of yapping about your outside sponsoring system make use of that time to learn the history.


You should learn what hospitals the outside sponsorship system was used for any why. Clarence S who claimed he was the father of Alcoholics Anonymous this arrogance of the outside sponsorship system runs deep in A.A

I like how Bill W put it when the traditions were wrote - The menacing forces in A.A - That explains you kind to a tee.
Thank you for sharing ----
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby PaigeB » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:11 am

evil glaring
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
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Re: Myths of sponsorship for the superstitious

Postby leejosepho » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:25 am

@service: I do not do rhetorical debate, so I am unable/unwilling -- take your pick, said respectfully -- to respond to your rhetorical questions. I only deal in facts while only very occasionally expressing a directly-related opinion. However, I am quite interested in continuing this discussion if you might be willing to join within the dynamic of simply laying all the cards out on the table face-up for everyone to look at together. Your most-recent posts indicate you are capable of that.

My first sponsor said and did this:

"I am here only to get you started, and to prepare you (or 'and that includes preparing you') for 'the big world of AA'."

So, he was consciously aware of needing/wanting to avoid the "GovernMental" kind of sponsorship you mention. He did occasionally say something like "Let us do your thinking for you for a while (to help get you started)", but he was only talking about *how* to think clearly and *never* tried to teach any of us *what* to think. If you might ever have seen "The Paper Chase", my first sponsor was a very kind-hearted and effective "Professor Kingsfield". One of my favorite quotations I seldom repeat lest I plant the idea of hating *me* in someone's mind:

"If you [say things that] make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you [say things that] really make them think, they'll hate you." -Don Marquis

It is true that the Steps had not yet been written in the form of a twelve-numbered list until shortly before the book was printed, but that does not mean they did not already exist:

"...the infant Society determined to set down its experience in a book which finally reached the public in April 1939...the spiritual ideas of the Society were codified for the first time in the Twelve Steps, and the application of these Steps to the alcoholic's dilemma was made clear." (12&12, Foreword)

Our Basic Text is where the *codification* of the recovery process or "Steps" first appeared...and if the timing of that codification might actually be relevant within this discussion of sponsorship, please show that relevance.

I have heard all the arguments about whether or not Clarence S. either might not or might have been the one to actually begin A.A., and none of those interest me. What interests me is right here where we are today and how to best help others like ourselves asking for direction without our destroying them in the process.

My own approach to anything and everything, and as learned from one of my many mentors or "sponsors", spiritual advisors or whatever:

"Please begin at the basic truths and move forward, not at some problematic passage (or situation) moving backwards." -varnishke
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================
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