OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Most of us who recovered with AA's program did so with the help of a "sponsor". But what is sponsorship? How do I get one? Who can be a sponsor? What makes a good sponsor?
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Tosh
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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by Tosh » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:38 am

Service wrote:The fellowship does for me what 1000K sponsors could not even come close to doing and God does for us what we cannot do for our self's are you stating the Big should be co-dependent on a sponsor or the Big Book and Fellowship is enough?
I haven't read all of the posts, but you seem to be indicating that God has certain properties; I'm inferring you mean God is a "He" and is apart from us, maybe living on a cloud on a sky?

But what if God is sponsors, fellowship, Big Book, program, the Sun, stars, my dog, your dog, the grass; in fact what if God is everything? Wow.

It's like when I've heard someone share "And then God turned up!" as if we're here and God is somewhere else. Is that really true? I don't think it is. Even if I were religious (which I'm not), I shouldn't really think that (note the curtain ripping in Heaven when Jesus was crucified, letting 'God out' (of course 'He' was already out, it's only in our minds that we constrain God to some kind of tight-dogmatic concept).

God is everything or 'He' is nothing.

Yeh, I've added the apostrophes, I don't think God is a 'He', I think that's just an anthropomorphism; I really do think God is everything, just like our Big Book describes. Even you, Service, mate, have the Great Reality deep down inside you.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by leejosepho » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:47 am

Tosh wrote:God is everything or 'He' is nothing.

Yeh, I've added the apostrophes, I don't think God is a 'He', I think that's just an anthropomorphism; I really do think God is everything, just like our Big Book describes. Even you, Service, mate, have the Great Reality deep down inside you.
Yes, so 'He', 'She' or 'It' certainly seems...and there is where I place my faith and worship while in right fellowship with others just like myself.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by Service » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:08 pm

Tosh, Your one that has question rather than the trolls who live here with arrogant answers, There are many substitutions for faith we have yet to find a substitution for God. - all these people places and things and were still looking, maybe he is not lost and we are, and co-dependencies we cling to to is a pass time.
Love has no labels so it is easy to understand the arrogant vent om here - wait till they stumble upon it, only then will it mean anything anyway to people who love to menace into other peoples life's as if they are somebody. Yes God is everything or he is nothing, A.A is that straight forward some call it being honest others call it a game.
Nice to hear from you Tosh hope our paths cross again soon, :P

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by praespero.xii » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:48 pm

I joined these forums tonight, and feel it's fitting my first post should be here.

Service, I was once like you. I aggressively challenged other AA's on their beliefs about the program. I was militant, and was a prime example of why so many Muckers were thrown out of meetings a few years back. I took pleasure in explaining to other people why the way they were working their program was wrong. I failed to see the resentments I was developing against people who stuck to "middle of the road" solution. I failed to adhere to our code of love and tolerance.

And after a while, you know what happened? I relapsed.

You are clearly carrying around some pretty heavy duty resentments. I mean, you've come onto an online forum full of wonderful people and discussions to what - prove them wrong?

I'll be praying for you.

EDIT: Furthermore, you are not entitled to or "deserve" honest answers. It's that kind of self-centred behaviour that brought you to the 12 Step Fellowships in the first place.
"We have recovered, and have been given the power to help others." - Alcoholics Anonymous, pg. 132

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by Tosh » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:29 am

Welcome to the forum, Praespero.

Regards

Tosh
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by Robert R » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:37 am

Welcome praespero.xii Hope to see more from you around the forums.
Don't know exactly where I am going but I'm on my way and it's already much better than where I've been.

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by Niagara » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:23 am

Welcome, Praespero :)
If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month -
Theodore Roosevelt

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by leejosepho » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:47 am

Welcome, Hope 12.
praespero.xii wrote:...not entitled to or "deserve" honest answers.
No disagreement here. We are never obligated to enter any rhetorical arena. Yet lest any newcomer might misunderstand: Truly-honest questions are actually solicited. For example:

"You may already have asked yourself why it is that all of us became so very ill from drinking. Doubtless you are curious to discover how and why, in the face of expert opinion to the contrary, we have recovered from a hopeless condition of mind and body. If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking - 'What do I have to do?'
"It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done." (page 20)

And then for ourselves:

"Even though your protégé may not have entirely admitted his condition, he has become very curious to know how you got well. Let him ask you that question, if he will." (pages 92-93)

Setting mere philosophy and all else aside, answering questions is what our 12th-Step work is all about.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by praespero.xii » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:26 am

Thank you everyone for your kind welcome! And thank you leejosepho for your comment; I should have been more clear.

We members of AA are definitely deserving of honesty. Especially when it comes to being a newcomer. But we are not entitled to it. Service, however, doesn't seem to be asking for honest answers, but instead demanding them.
"We have recovered, and have been given the power to help others." - Alcoholics Anonymous, pg. 132

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by Tosh » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:26 am

I think Service has one negative concept of what sponsorship means to him (something like that sponsors are being used as a god), and most other folk have positive concepts of what sponsorship means to them.

And it's the difference in concepts that cause the problems.

In a real sense we're not disagreeing about sponsorship, we're disagreeing about the meaning (the concept) of a word.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by leejosepho » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:39 am

I have seen situations where "sponsors" are controllers or manipulators preying upon vulnerable people, and even with good intentions. When/where I first got sober, some of us were accused of or labeled as "beep-beep robots" by people who thought that was happening with us. Then in at least two situations since, I have approached a prospective "sponsor" for some help and quickly discovered the presence of some kind of sponsor-determined compliance requirement...and in each case I understood the individual's possibly-unwitting need or desire for that even while honestly meaning and wanting only to be helpful. So overall, I do understand the concern that our "one ultimate authority" upon whom/which we rely not be a mere sponsor.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by clouds » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:14 am

Service wrote:Why does the book mean when it says this in the book
“Our egomania digs two disastrous pitfalls, Either we insist upon dominating the people we know, or we depend upon them fare to much”
is it talking about you and me or do you think it is about sponsor and co-dependent or both? Or do you thinks it's not even talking about us and someone else?
An honest question deserves an honest answer !
Please don't attack me here again attack where it came from
Hi Service,

your quote from the 12x12 page 53, Step Four, speaks to alcoholics. It surely is talking about me and I am an alcoholic. Its really hard to negotiate any relationship with a person without dominating or depending. Since it speaks to Alcoholocs, then it also means sponsors and sponsees too.

Thats as honest as I can be about that sentence from the 12 and 12, page 53, Step 4. No need to attqck you about where it comes from, it is a good identificaion of the problems in many relationships between people.

I'd personally like to only have relationships with a Higher Power at all times myself. I do seperate people as human powers from the Higher Power. For me God isnt every material thing. I believe God is present everywhere, but not that God is everything in a material sense. Human power failed me and honestly for me it is of little avail in any situation.

I had a sponsor who guided me through the first few steps, 1 through 5. After that she moved half way across the country and I never really used a sponsor any more. I have been sober through the steps of AA for many many years.

I hope what I share leads people to find their own way of living sober, personal dependence on a Higher Power is the fundamental root of the solution to sobriety.

Best wishes on your sober journey.


edited: because I capitalized Human Power, lol!
" Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." page 98 A.A.

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by Service » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:06 am

clouds wrote:
Service wrote:Why does the book mean when it says this in the book
“Our egomania digs two disastrous pitfalls, Either we insist upon dominating the people we know, or we depend upon them fare to much”
is it talking about you and me or do you think it is about sponsor and co-dependent or both? Or do you thinks it's not even talking about us and someone else?
An honest question deserves an honest answer !
Please don't attack me here again attack where it came from
Hi Service,

your quote from the 12x12 page 53, Step Four, speaks to alcoholics. It surely is talking about me and I am an alcoholic. Its really hard to negotiate any relationship with a person without dominating or depending. Since it speaks to Alcoholocs, then it also means sponsors and sponsees too.

Thats as honest as I can be about that sentence from the 12 and 12, page 53, Step 4. No need to attqck you about where it comes from, it is a good identificaion of the problems in many relationships between people.

I'd personally like to only have relationships with a Higher Power at all times myself. I do seperate people as human powers from the Higher Power. For me God isnt every material thing. I believe God is present everywhere, but not that God is everything in a material sense. Human power failed me and honestly for me it is of little avail in any situation.

I had a sponsor who guided me through the first few steps, 1 through 5. After that she moved half way across the country and I never really used a sponsor any more. I have been sober through the steps of AA for many many years.

I hope what I share leads people to find their own way of living sober, personal dependence on a Higher Power is the fundamental root of the solution to sobriety.

Best wishes on your sober journey.


edited: because I capitalized Human Power, lol!
You had a sponsor who guided you through 1 - 5 steps?
Question, Step 1. How did your sponsor convince you you were an alcoholic?
Step 2. How did your sponsor get you to believe in their God?
Step 3. Why would you turn your life and will over when you already have a sponsor?
Step 4. How did your sponsor help you when they weren't even there regarding your past inventory
Step 5. Did the same person help you here to?
Can you share with us personally, without being general on how your personal willingness was of no use and you sponsor was?

"your quote from the 12x12 page 53, Step Four, speaks to alcoholics. It surely is talking about me and I am an alcoholic. Its really hard to negotiate any relationship with a person without dominating or depending. Since it speaks to Alcoholocs, then it also means sponsors and sponsees too."

My quote or A.A's ?

The difference between animals and all people are people easily lie and deceive themselves. "then it also means sponsors and sponsees too." LOL

Oh ya - I edited too, to add this, it's no sin is it? just joking, don't go ask your sponsor.

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by clouds » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:27 pm

Service wrote:
clouds wrote:
Service wrote:Why does the book mean when it says this in the book
“Our egomania digs two disastrous pitfalls, Either we insist upon dominating the people we know, or we depend upon them fare to much”
is it talking about you and me or do you think it is about sponsor and co-dependent or both? Or do you thinks it's not even talking about us and someone else?
An honest question deserves an honest answer !
Please don't attack me here again attack where it came from
Hi Service,

your quote from the 12x12 page 53, Step Four, speaks to alcoholics. It surely is talking about me and I am an alcoholic. Its really hard to negotiate any relationship with a person without dominating or depending. Since it speaks to Alcoholocs, then it also means sponsors and sponsees too.

Thats as honest as I can be about that sentence from the 12 and 12, page 53, Step 4. No need to attqck you about where it comes from, it is a good identificaion of the problems in many relationships between people.

I'd personally like to only have relationships with a Higher Power at all times myself. I do seperate people as human powers from the Higher Power. For me God isnt every material thing. I believe God is present everywhere, but not that God is everything in a material sense. Human power failed me and honestly for me it is of little avail in any situation.

I had a sponsor who guided me through the first few steps, 1 through 5. After that she moved half way across the country and I never really used a sponsor any more. I have been sober through the steps of AA for many many years.

I hope what I share leads people to find their own way of living sober, personal dependence on a Higher Power is the fundamental root of the solution to sobriety.

Best wishes on your sober journey.


edited: because I capitalized Human Power, lol!
You had a sponsor who guided you through 1 - 5 steps?
Question, Step 1. How did your sponsor convince you you were an alcoholic?
Step 2. How did your sponsor get you to believe in their God?
Step 3. Why would you turn your life and will over when you already have a sponsor?
Step 4. How did your sponsor help you when they weren't even there regarding your past inventory
Step 5. Did the same person help you here to?
Can you share with us personally, without being general on how your personal willingness was of no use and you sponsor was?

"your quote from the 12x12 page 53, Step Four, speaks to alcoholics. It surely is talking about me and I am an alcoholic. Its really hard to negotiate any relationship with a person without dominating or depending. Since it speaks to Alcoholocs, then it also means sponsors and sponsees too."

My quote or A.A's ?

The difference between animals and all people are people easily lie and deceive themselves. "then it also means sponsors and sponsees too." LOL

Oh ya - I edited too, to add this, it's no sin is it? just joking, don't go ask your sponsor.
Hi Service,
Step one, My sponsor didn't convince me I was an alcoholic. I knew I was an alcoholic before I called AA and was taken to my first meeting.

Step Two, my sponsor didn't get me to believe in her god, infact she wouldn't even try. I had to find a Higher Power so that I could take step two as sincerely and honestly as was possible for me and then go on with the steps.

Step Three, I turned my life and will over to My Creator, not to my sponsor. My sponsor didn't take the role of a god in my life. She carried the message of AA, shared with me her experience of doing the steps and directed me to work the steps to the best of my ability as written in the Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Step Four, I was responsible to see and understand my defects of character. That was not my sponsor who did that work. Having done step three, with the help of My Creator I believe I was as honest, thorough and unafraid as it was possible for me to be at that time.

Step five, Some of my fifth step was taken with my sponsor, other parts of it were done with a person who is a spiritual advisor.

I don't understand your question about personal willingness. No human power, and not my own will was enough to get me sober. My sponsor was a person experienced in sobriety for many years and was the person who first guided me through the steps. She helped me to understand what was being said in the BB of AA. I was not educated in spiritual things when I came to AA and I was just 24, I was also very fogged up by alcoholfor some months. I needed many words in the BB explained to me, as I didn't know what pride, self pity, resentment, self centerdness were. I had to ask myself what all the spiritual concepts in the Book of AA meant to me, and I needed help even to know what many of those words concerning the steps meant.

About animals, they are innocent and humans often deceive themselves and others. I believe that is true.

Service, I rsponded to your question about what is in the 12 x 12. You asked and I gave you my honest answer. I thought you were discussing a sort of co-dependency inAA between sponsors and sponsees. sorry if I couldn't answer in a way that was more clear. I apologize if I misundérstood what you asked.

I understand from the first paragraph of the chapter 'How it Works' that if we have the capacity to be honest, we have a better than average chance to stay sober if we are willing to do the 12 steps.I hope you keep asking questions until you have found some answers that continue to help you be in the solution that the Steps have for alcoholism.
Best wishes.
" Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." page 98 A.A.

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Re: OMG - Honest questions deserves honest answers !

Post by Larryp713 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:02 pm

Service wrote:
You had a sponsor who guided you through 1 - 5 steps?
Question, Step 1. How did your sponsor convince you you were an alcoholic?
Step 2. How did your sponsor get you to believe in their God?
Step 3. Why would you turn your life and will over when you already have a sponsor?
Step 4. How did your sponsor help you when they weren't even there regarding your past inventory
Step 5. Did the same person help you here to?
Can you share with us personally, without being general on how your personal willingness was of no use and you sponsor was?
My sponsor shared with me his story, how he came to understand his powerlessness over alcohol and how his life was unmanageable. He helped me see the parts of my story that convinced me I am also an alcoholic, as described in the Dr's opinion and More about Alcoholism. My sponsor then shared with me how his relationship with God changed to be something he could rely on to help relieve his alcoholism. He provided direction, such as daily prayer and identify parts of the Big Book to help me develop my own relationship with God. My sponsor helped me pray to turn my will and life over to the care of God, and then told me how he was instructed to write out an inventory. He referenced the big book, which I am grateful. When I was ready, I shared my inventory with him, and he helped me identify defects of my character and common threads in my inventory, mostly by listening and supporting.

For me, that support really helped me work the steps. My sponsor did not convince me I was an alcoholic, never asked me to believe in his God, really just shared what worked for him, and encouraged me to work the steps as he had been taught. I felt relief that was incredible.

I am so sorry you had a bad experience with sponsorship, but you come off as very toxic and close-minded. There are a lot of ways to do this thing wrong, and I found most of them on my own. With my sponsor's help, and the Big Book and fellowship of AA, I have finally felt what it is like to have that spiritual experience described in the Big Book. I hope all that seek can find the same, and I don't see how you think your diatribes against sponsorship would help anybody. Be blessed! Larry
Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny!!!

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