whats 13th stepping

The 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, the principles that hold our groups and society together.

Re: whats 13th stepping

Postby Jim 725 » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:09 am

"They need to do their sex inventory in Step Four."
The problem is that they've skipped directly from Step One Half to Step Thirteen.
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Re: whats 13th stepping

Postby Blue Moon » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:19 am

True, it's not exclusively heterosexual.

But I do think it's an overused term which is sometimes used for others to be judgemental about human nature that just happens to occur between people in AA.

I'm also convinced such things are sometimes used, more typically by women, to rationalise their own behaviour by blaming someone else rather than work the program.
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Re: whats 13th stepping

Postby tomsidea » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:58 am

Originally posted by curt:
Ian I agree that this really in many ways is a 12 step issue in that we have a message to carry and the message is not that we can solve our problems by using relationships or sex the way we used alcohol.


Curt
I'm grateful for reading this thread; this pretty sums up a lot of things. I'm a returning newcomer (been about 15 years), and i've noticed that i not only have a tendency to give up one addiction for another, but i also have a tendency to fall in love with anyone who shows me attention. I've been in several abusive relationships--emotional, psychological, as well as physical ones---and certainly the last thing i need as i learn how to live sober is something else that will consume me.
cathy

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Re: whats 13th stepping

Postby Words » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:03 pm

It is not a gender issue. It can happen from men to women, from women to men, women-women, men-men. What I think really definies the game, and it is a game, is that one is nearly sober and yet to do the program, and the other is an old timer who should know the program better and carry the message not the mess. Unfortunatelly, there are people with many years in the rooms who have not done the steps and use the rooms as extension area to practice their sickness. A newcomer tends to believe that an old timer knows the path to sobriety. And the sponsor position is a most responsible one. Someone who had not practice the steps and dare to sponsor can do real damage. Besides the sexual affairs, there are co-dependence and all kind of obsessive relashionship addictions. Alcoholism is a sickness of the spirit, and a dry drunk can be as dangerous as a wet one, only that he may not know it and the newcomer can't see it, being him/herself yet struggling to find a healthier way of life.

My two cents.

<small>[ 06-21-2006, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Words ]</small>
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Postby LostWolf » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:01 am

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Last edited by LostWolf on Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Blue Moon » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:02 am

LostWolf wrote:We are allowed to have an opinion about stuff.
Perhaps this is gossip, and can be seen as not nice, I don’t mean this in a gossip way, I don’t like gossip. But really if I had not been warned about this person I think I would have been in trouble.
Interesting to think about. I don’t like bad mouthing people, but on the other hand this warning I got saved me from a very bad time I am sure. I am very grateful to the person who warned me, glad tehy said something and didnt stay quiet.


Seems reasonable to me. There's a difference between malicious gossip and well-intentioned concern.
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Postby Jim 725 » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:08 am

It's very easy to ruin an innocent person's reputation by a well meaning warning to a newcomer. Wouldn't it be easier to suggest to newcomers that if anyone (Of another sexual persuasion) invites her/him for coffee, dinner, etc. to accept the invitation provided it includes the newcomer's sponsor?
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Postby Blue Moon » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:34 pm

As a newcomer it might have saved me a bit of time and effort if someone had bothered to mention that the person who was trying to sponsor me hadn't actually worked the Steps.

Perhaps his reputation was more important than my sobriety?
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Postby bigjoe » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:59 am

Don't take this wrong. There are those who come to meetings, who are truly predator looking for sex, financial security and a place to live and the list can go on I've witnessed both men and women in this category, but the truth is we don't go to these meetings to be the moral police. Nor is it any of one's business, who dates who this is an outside controversy.. It's none of the groups business. If a man and a woman are interested in each other. If the group think something's wrong. They have to ask themselves a real pertinent question has a crime being committed and if it has the need to call the authorities. I have witnessed more on one occasion, where a couple have been accosted by members of a group thinking that they are the saviors of this woman and telling both of them they should not be dating each other. He is not good for your sobriety telling the man, you should know better. The bottom line is this if both parties have good intentions about participating in a relationship. It's neither the groups nor anyone in that group's business.. as I said before the group did not elect a moral police. Nor is it in the traditions that says you cannot date or have relationships. This is purely institutional AA..... I do tell my sponsoey's that if they choose. To date, not the darkened my door with those issues. For one reason it is an outside issue and should remain so. I have found many people that just participate in this controversy to be bored with their own lives and are looking for drama and others or to create drama you cannot judge somebody intentions from a distance. I've talked to several young men about dating women in a in our group and I found their intentions to be honorable don't get me wrong, bad things do happen to men and women in the world and AA is no exception to this rule and I do not think it's out of line to keep an eye on somebody who may have bad intentions towards another member and of The group. As I said before, this is an outside controversy that has brought in by people who probably should know better we seem to lose focus on why we are really at meetings relationships come and go in both parties generally have raw emotions towards the other one afterwards is best to remember why we're at meetings and to have our focus on recovery from alcoholism and the steps in the traditions. If an individual's morals are not in line with safety of another individual steps need to be taken as I said before, if a crime is being committed or has been committed. The authorities need to be called, if not, it's no one's business, this is life on life's terms and relationships are part of that to preclude it from the process is interference with a spiritual growth of an individual, and it doesn't matter to me if you disagree or not. I find a lot of times the intentions of people disagree with this subject. Being an outside issue generally have motives, other then the good for the group
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Postby Norwejn » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:25 pm

What he ^^^ said.
It IS an outside issue.

My live-in girlfriend has considerably more time than I and it has been a source of angst on occasion...that said, I am very pleased with our relationship and if anybody has a problem with her or me or us,well they can...(insert blankity-blank)...call their sponsor or pray about it. Bottom line, butt out. I really like bigjoe's 'moral police' take on things and wish that it didnt exist-but it does.

People are social creatures and we enjoy the company of the opposite sex, as well as the intimacy. Seeings how most women are 'off-limits' to me, drinkers,users and abusers...I am quite comfortable saying that I found me a great lady in AA.

I came to AA for a solution to my problem with living. I got answers and a whole lot more!
When we drew near to Him he disclosed Himself to us!
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Postby bowlerdawg » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:26 pm

Jim 725 wrote:It's very easy to ruin an innocent person's reputation by a well meaning warning to a newcomer. Wouldn't it be easier to suggest to newcomers that if anyone (Of another sexual persuasion) invites her/him for coffee, dinner, etc. to accept the invitation provided it includes the newcomer's sponsor?
Jim S.


+1 there Jim
First of all we had to quit playing God, it didn't work
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Postby Sparky » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:42 pm

I had an oldtimer tell me that sometimes to an male alcoholic a woman can be a drink on two legs.

The next frontier: Emotional Sobriety
by Bill Wilson, from Language of the Heart published by the A.A.Grapevine

"Those adolescent urges that so many of us have for top approval, perfect security and perfect romance--urges quite appropriate to age seventeen-- prove to be an impossible way of life when we are at age forty-seven or fifty-seven.":oops:


Once I took the book 'As Bill Sees It' and replaced the word dependency with the word co-dependency and it fit fairly well. I was told once the alcohol is gone this is the next biggest problem. I found that to be very true for me.

Insecurities is mentioned alot in our literature too. I was told that as a part of my denial it is possible for me to use anything to take the focus off myself.

I have also heard of some that talk about 13 stepping being a control issue too. Not just a sexual issue but people with unresolved control issues
13 stepping newcomers with control.

It mentions in our literature most alcoholics are sensitive people. I think if wediscussed this "dependencies issue" and simply not blame people for having these issues...even the sexaholic, in my understanding simply has a spiritual delema.

I have been to CODA and ACA and Emotions Anonymous too, but if I search I can find this information about dependencies in the AA literature.

It is wonderful after I got sober I can learn more about life.

12/12 page 80

"Since defective relations with other human beings have nearly always been the immediate cause of our woes, including our alcoholism, no field of investigation could yield more staisfying valuable rewards than this one."

12/12 page 81

"Then year by year we walk back through our lives as far as memory will reach, we shall be bound to construct a long list of people who have, to some extent or other, been effected."

I was told this is to incldue the realtionship with my family and not only how I effected them but how they effected me.

My parents were also alcoholics and I started smoking pot at age 9 was an alcoholic at age 13 and a blackout drinker at age 15.

Once in the past I met a girl in the recovery rooms that only had three months clean/sober. I was in love with her. My sponsor told me,"So, basically you are messing with Gods will".

After that I had told the girl we had to take it slower and that we had to stay apart a while. I think that may have hurt her, I don't know. I do know she never came back and I will never know if it was my fault....although I know I am only human. I had to learn that these are very sensitive issues. I would like to say we 13 stepped each other and justified it by telling myself, "Well, I never got to step 12 yet, How could I have 13 stepped her, we 13 stepped each other....etc...etc..."

Now,I am not only more respectful to others but also more respectful and understanding to myself.

It is not only people getting their sexual needs met. There are lots of other issues going on and the newcomers are very vulnerable...and many that are not so new are too in regards to these relationship issues.

12/12 page 115

"We had failed to see that though adult in years we were still behaving childishly, trying to turn everybody---friends, wives, husbands, even the world itself--into protective parents."

"our demands for attention become unreasonable."

Anyway anyone else ever notice in the Big Book that Bill W. had put all the sexual stuff is on page 69 ? :oops:

We are not a glum lot. :lol:

In my personal understanding this is an inside issue!

I can't/We can
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Postby avaneesh912 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:43 am

I want to add this on the lighter side. I head this in David As workshop. He says every thing you hear in AA he can relate to whats in the Big book and then goes on to say even 13th stepping. Then he goes on to read a portion of the story from "Vicious Cycle"

In June 1945, with another member, I made my first and only Twelfth Step call on a female alcoholic, and a year later I married her. She has been sober all the way through and for me that has been good. We can share in the laughter and tears of our many friends and most import we can share our AA way of life and are given a daily opportunity to help others.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Postby Sparky » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:13 pm

My personal experiences are somewhat in line with the living sober book.

Living Sober
Steering Clear of emotional entanglements
page 61

So, as our experience shows, the first nondrinking days are likely to be periods of great emotional vulnerability.


page 62
Over the years, we have become strongly convinced that almost no important decisions should be arrived at early in our sobriety, unless they cannot possibly be delayed. This caution particularly applies to decisions about people, decisions with high emotional potential.


My sponsor/friend is out drinking right this minute. He had fourteen years and got back involved with his ex that he met at a meeting. She realpsed...he relapsed. I have seen this over and over. In my area they usually say it is best to wait a year for any relationship.

I personally loved the movie "28 Days" in that movie they recommended two years. I suppose as with everything else it all varies from person to person.

Anyway as I have alway heard," once you sober up the real work starts."

I like the saying; there has to be an "I" before there can be a "We" sadly alot of hearts are broken before they find out there was never an "I" to begin with.

I learned from an oldtimer I respect alot that it is best to learn to have a relationship with myself and my higher power first, and a relationship with other human beings of the opposite sex (for hetrosexuals) then when I can do that right maybe try for an exclusive relationship with a partner.

I found this helpful: The Origin of the 13th Step
Link deleted by moderator - see links policy here viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8
12/12
page 119
They need to be as sure as possible that no deep-lying emotional handicap in either will be likely to rise up under later pressure to cripple them.


I have lots of hope :!: I have heard this more than once:
"There's a slip under every skirt" ,"Give the newcomer a chance stay out of their pants." :lol:

I can't/We can
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Postby rbegos » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:43 pm

Boy can I relate to this on a lot of levels....

My two cents? You gotta be where you are for the purpose that you're there for. If I'm at my job, I should be working on my job and focusing on what I'm doing. Not looking to see if the guy sitting to my right has a ring on his finger. It takes away from my concentration.

There are some things that you can't control, but many things that you can. As far as men and women go, the majority of us who have suffered through addictive behaviors have done so because of some sort of human to human deficiency, or unhealthy behaviors brought unto us by another human through sexual abuse, physical abuse, verbal abuse, control issues, abandonment, etc. Part of our recovery is in dealing with those issues and those deficiencies. So...when we see someone who is filling those areas of our lives that have seemed empty for a long time, it is natural for us to latch on, even though we see red flags everywhere.

Unfortunately, you gotta pay attention to the red flags, and not to all of the other stuff that is happening.

I think that work relationships, relationships in bands (I've had them...each failed miserably), relationships in counseling groups and relationships in AA are not healthy, because then the focus turns into making the relationship survive, and not on working on the program. This is not to say that anyone who gets involved will not have a successful relationship. It is to say that focus on getting well is key, and relationships within these types of environments just naturally take away from focusing.

Having said that...we have to be careful about ALL people, outside or in, who exhibit these behaviors of attention when we are at a vulnerable state and not ready. I almost lost my life last year by making that stupid mistake. 9 times out of 10, you are most definitely being manipulated.
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