Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

The 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, the principles that hold our groups and society together.

Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby tomsteve » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:04 am

SoberInMI wrote:[Does anyone want to do a big book study here?

Does anyone want to do a big book study here?

Another example is that people will say that in the 3rd step we are only making a "decision." But reading the Big Book discussion on the 3rd step finds the 3rd step prayer where we in fact give our will and lives over to the care of God.


after C) that God could and would if he were sought

you will see its a little deeper then that.
first, the 3rd step explains why we have to make the decision. theres a couple pages in there explaining why.
"This is the how and why of it. First of all...."

then we decide if we want to turn out will and life over. then we turn it over.
theres one more thing that the 3rd step decision is- a decision to continue with the rest of the steps.


you seem to be more smarter than all of us here.best of luck on your journey.
whats your sponsor have to say about it all?
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby tomsteve » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:13 am

[quote="SoberInMI
Here in Michigan we typically have table meetings, or each table is a meeting within a meeting and often based on the Akron Pamphlet, once known as the Detroit Pamphlet probably because the pamphlet was never copyrighted (hint hint), which just covers the steps. I have experienced tables where someone has gotten upset that part of what someone has shared is not strictly on the step at hand. Personally, I like to show how the steps are related to each other and not stand alone.

quote]

you mean in YOUR AREA of Michigan.

I have been to meetings from soo st marie( even hadda a police escort to find the meeting and not in the back of his car) to flatrock. traverse city bay city and a couple hundred places in between. how meetings are organized and managed vary.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby SoberInMI » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:54 am

tomsteve wrote:theres one more thing that the 3rd step decision is- a decision to continue with the rest of the steps.


You throw a lot of nonsense into your two posts including fictitious quotes which I won't address. What I will address is that I have heard this nonsense before. While your comment is not relevant to the point I was making, the two paragraphs in the Big Book devoted to the 3rd step says nothing about the "decision" being one to continue with the rest of the steps. You do exemplify my point that few are interested in understanding what the founders are telling us, instead focusing on "self"-interpretation: "Rarely (actually never) have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path...."
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby Duke » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:06 am

For anyone interested, Bill Wilson wrote about the role of clubs in a Grapevine article titled:

"Clubs in AA April 1947"

I'm sure you can search the title with his name and find the whole thing, but in it he wrote:

"This tangle slowly commenced to unravel, as we began to get the idea that clubs ought to be strictly the business of those individuals who specially want clubs, and who are willing to pay for them. We began to see that club management is a pure business proposition, which ought to be separately incorporated under another name such, for example, as Alano; that the directors of a club corporation ought to look after club business only; that an AA group, as such, should never get into active management of a business project. Hectic experience has since taught us that if an AA rotating committee tries to boss the club corporation or if the corporation tries to run the AA affairs of those groups who may meet at the club there is difficulty at once. The only way we have found to cure this is to separate the material from the spiritual. If an AA group wishes to use a given club let them pay rent or split the meeting take with the club management. To a small group opening its first clubroom, this procedure may seem silly, because for the moment the group members will also be club members. Nevertheless, separation by early incorporation is recommended because it will save much confusion later on as other groups start forming in the area."

Cheers.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby SoberInMI » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:22 am

Please delete this moderator.
Last edited by SoberInMI on Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby SoberInMI » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:30 am

Duke wrote:For anyone interested, Bill Wilson wrote about the role of clubs in a Grapevine article titled:

"Clubs in AA April 1947"

I'm sure you can search the title with his name and find the whole thing, but in it he wrote:

"...which ought to be separately incorporated under another name such, for example, as Alano; that the directors of a club corporation ought to look after club business only...


I agree with the call to incorporate sober clubs under another name, but "Alano" is just another form of the same name and I am sure that if AA had chose to defend its registered name that it would succeeded in a legal challenge. Arguably AA is sanctioning or impliedly licensing "Alano" clubs which should then be subject to the principles of AA itself.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby Blue Moon » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:10 am

SoberInMI wrote:Still, you are incorrect. blah blah blah


You're a newcomer here, so I'll simply ignore your inane and ill-informed ramblings and simply say "keep coming back". It might behoove you to be quiet for a while, you have much more to learn than you think.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby SoberInMI » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:17 am

I might suggest that a little self reflection may be helpful here. May God Bless You!!!
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby PaigeB » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:24 am

traditions don't permit the lending of the AA name

The name of AA is Alcoholics Anonymous, not a variation of that name, but that name. When you talk about registered names, I assure you they do not provide protection for variations. Alano may even be separately registered, if either of them is actually registered... I will not be fact checking that on a sunday morning! Trademarks have a come a long way since the days when they books were handwritten and such, but it is a very dry area of the law and a deep deep pile of documents to peruse. :wink:
Frankly, I don't think Paige is really telling what she is experiencing because her statement that she is done arguing when she never engaged in the debate in the first place is irrational. Paige's anger seems to be an indication that I proved that a strongly held belief was wrong.

Indeed I misspoke - I am not going to START arguing with you. I don't know what makes you think I am angry though, just not willing to engage here - moderator edit
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby SoberInMI » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:58 am

PaigeB wrote:
traditions don't permit the lending of the AA name

The name of AA is Alcoholics Anonymous, not a variation of that name, but that name.


Really, because the two names have so much in common,

PaigeB wrote:When you talk about registered names, I assure you they do not provide protection for variations. Alano may even be separately registered, if either of them is actually registered... I will not be fact checking that on a sunday morning! Trademarks have a come a long way since the days when they books were handwritten and such, but it is a very dry area of the law and a deep deep pile of documents to peruse. :wink:


I am not asking you to confirm that Alcoholics Anonymous is a registered name. Still, I don't hear any authority that says I am wrong.


PaigeB wrote:
Frankly, I don't think Paige is really telling what she is experiencing because her statement that she is done arguing when she never engaged in the debate in the first place is irrational. Paige's anger seems to be an indication that I proved that a strongly held belief was wrong.


Indeed I misspoke - I am not going to START arguing with you. I don't know what makes you think I am angry though, just not willing to engage here - you have added so many things you dislike about AA and AA meetings that I wish to go stand over there with people who want this program ~ and who need it.


It appears that you have misspoken again because you are arguing with me. It also seems to me that the program teaches we cannot address our problems until we become aware of them and often times we don't like what we discover.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby Brock » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:01 pm

While your comment is not relevant to the point I was making, the two paragraphs in the Big Book devoted to the 3rd step says nothing about the "decision" being one to continue with the rest of the steps.

That may be so, but a whole lot of members here, have been advising those who are stuck at #3, because they couldn't completely turn their will over, that by progressing through the other steps this would become easier to do. People do balk at 4 & 5, and use not fully understanding 3 as an excuse for delay. This is based on our experience and our interpretation of the book, and many have come back to say thanks when it worked out for them the way it worked for us. But no, you read it different, and site a prayer whose wording is optional anyway.

You tell me -
You misunderstand what it means to share your experience, strength and hope which is done in part because alcoholics are a stubborn and self-centerd sort and don't take "instructions" very well. So in AA we don't give "advice." Instead, we share how we did it or how it worked for us suggesting how it could work or be worked for others: experience, strength and hope. Laying out facts and opinions has nothing to do with it.

Thank you for that brilliant advise, couldn't you see that I was speaking about how some topics on these forums are discussed, and that certain people feel we must write nothing but E.S. & H. Of course in topics where newcomers or others ask questions we speak from our experience, I have been doing that in meetings and here for years.

If anybody misunderstands it may be you regarding human nature, you can't come on here and without an iota of humility, preach your interpretation of AA, and tell longstanding members, and long sober recovered alcoholics, that they have it all wrong and misunderstand. I am not surprised at some of the backlash from our members like - “you seem to be smarter than all of us here...I'll simply ignore your inane and ill-informed ramblings...you have much more to learn than you think.” And I notice some of our regulars who are among those who welcome a good debate, have not written a word, because it's not a debate. It's someone who thinks they have the only interpretation of the AA program, lecturing and correcting others, who in all probability have longer sobriety and serenity than he has.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby D'oh » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:06 pm

I am not asking you to confirm that Alcoholics Anonymous is a registered name. Still, I don't hear any authority that says I am wrong.

Moderator edit

Personally, I have always thought of Alano Club, as being an AA meeting place. You are lucky enough to have one in your town, maybe you should visit it sometime. Lots of good Fellowship in the one that is closest to me (but in another country).

And what of Open Meetings? and the 3rd Tradition?

I think you are Completely over thinking, This Simple Program.

BTW

My comments were not dependent on an implication that AA had lent its name to anybody else, I only commented on the literal words you wrote. Otherwise, you exemplify my last posting that many AA members self-interpret instead of trying to understand the writing itself. Going back to my posting regarding defects of character and shortcomings, steps 6 and 7, Merriam Webster defines defect as "an imperfection that impairs worth or utility : shortcoming."

The 6th and 7th Steps are Different Steps. The 6th, is about becoming the Unknown person on the otherside. The 7th is making the jump.

Who are we going to be without our False Pride, Arrogance, Lust, Greed, and so on? Then asking to be that New Person.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby SoberInMI » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:22 pm

Brock wrote:
While your comment is not relevant to the point I was making, the two paragraphs in the Big Book devoted to the 3rd step says nothing about the "decision" being one to continue with the rest of the steps.


That may be so...


That's like saying you agree with something "BUT" it is modified by everything I say next.


Brock wrote:You tell me -
You misunderstand what it means to share your experience, strength and hope which is done in part because alcoholics are a stubborn and self-centerd sort and don't take "instructions" very well. So in AA we don't give "advice." Instead, we share how we did it or how it worked for us suggesting how it could work or be worked for others: experience, strength and hope. Laying out facts and opinions has nothing to do with it.

Thank you for that brilliant advise, couldn't you see that I was speaking about how some topics on these forums are discussed, and that certain people feel we must write nothing but E.S. & H. Of course in topics where newcomers or others ask questions we speak from our experience, I have been doing that in meetings and here for years.


Are you telling me that there are unwritten rules about how to word a posting or just YOUR rules?

Brock wrote:If anybody misunderstands it may be you regarding human nature, you can't come on here and without an iota of humility, preach your interpretation of AA, and tell longstanding members, and long sober recovered alcoholics, that they have it all wrong and misunderstand.


I guess it is true that others will misinterpret my words because you have. I have offered far more than just "opinion." I have taken it patiently, but many have attacked me for what I post, probably because they dislike the truth, but there is NOTHING "humble" with that!!

Have you stopped to consider whether I am a newcomer or a "long sober recovered alcoholic?' Probably not.

Brock wrote:I am not surprised at some of the backlash from our members like - “you seem to be smarter than all of us here...I'll simply ignore your inane and ill-informed ramblings...you have much more to learn than you think.” And I notice some of our regulars who are among those who welcome a good debate, have not written a word, because it's not a debate. It's someone who thinks they have the only interpretation of the AA program, lecturing and correcting others, who in all probability have longer sobriety and serenity than he has.


You are entitled to your opinion and entitled to be wrong, and so am I. This "backlash" is in no measure of humility. Frankly, we alcoholics have difficulty with "inconvenient" truths that contradict our own. Or are you going to now dispute that I am an alcoholic.

Humility and the 10th step dictates that you should be examining your own behavior.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby Blue Moon » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:20 pm

SoberInMI wrote:Have you stopped to consider whether I am a newcomer or a "long sober recovered alcoholic?' Probably not.


Have you stopped to practice what you preach? Probably not.
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Re: Alano Clubs - Breaking Tradition?

Postby SoberInMI » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:29 pm

This posting is slowly degenerating, so I suggest to the Administrator and Moderators that this thread be closed.
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