The Athiest

The 12 Steps are the AA program of recovery from alcoholism.

Re: The Athiest

Postby avaneesh912 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:18 am

“If a Republican doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one. If a Democrat doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.” And “If a Republican is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church. A Democrat non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced.”


Thats what eckhart tolle calls it as "Identification with the mind" the ego!
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: The Athiest

Postby Blue Moon » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:28 pm

This is an alcoholic-recovery forum. If a country's leaders have a religious problem, those bothered should take it up with them. If your religion helps you, that's fine. But nobody can declare that a person with no religion cannot get and stay sober. I've met too many alcoholics who won't get sober until they get off their knees and do something about it. So there's a saying which we perhaps need more of in AA: "leave your religion [or political affiliation] at the door, pick it up on your way out."
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Re: The Athiest

Postby Brock » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:03 pm

So there's a saying which we perhaps need more of in AA: "leave your religion [or political affiliation] at the door, pick it up on your way out."

If my post sounded like politics I apologize, I was just quoting a comedians words to make a point. I am from the Caribbean, and have no idea or interest in what the difference in ideology is between a Republican and a Democrat.
But nobody can declare that a person with no religion cannot get and stay sober.

I have never seen such a thing happen, either here or in meetings. In fact people go to great lengths to point out the difference between religion and spirituality. And even those who consider themselves spiritual, are among the first to assure those newcomers who say that they are atheist, that alternatives like belief in the power of the group will work for them.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."
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Re: The Athiest

Postby PaigeB » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:10 pm

Brock probably has no idea that Jeff Foxworthy and his brand of "humor" was not something everyone liked, but in fact only a small segment of Southerners - wonderful folks, but they too have their proudly blasting the Democrats and homosexuals all while flying the Confederate Flag... even though the Confederacy lost the war.

Jeff Foxworthy might well have been a racist misogynist homophobe... and I would not go around proud touting his BS.
His looking down on others in NOT attractive.

But really... this is an AA Forum.

If we do not go back to the OP and stick with discussing our problems as they relate to alcoholism you will have to join me in what might equate to the cyber-corner of the room with a "Dunce" hat on. Yes - I am wrong for posting this. But I could not let the windy atheist to redneck BS to all the way out the door to the next barstool.

I too have to keep it clean. Let's end this ~ Yea, I like to have the last word.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
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Re: The Athiest

Postby Noels » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:05 am

:D :D :D Good morning beautiful people :D :D :D
My apologies. ... I simply cannot help myself. Well. ... I probably could if I really wanted to but what the heck. We're not a glum lot are we :D

Personally my experience have been that Creator do not need or require from us to try and prove It's existence. It is at times necessary to do work for It since we are in human form. However, being CREATOR and having CREATED all that is It is all powerful and have more power than the whole lot of us together :D Having said that, in all fairness, if a religious person feel it is free to voice its opinion about its belief surely it is fair for the spiritual person to do the same and visa versa ? This does not necessarily mean we are 'arguing ' ... simply that we treat each other as we would like to be treated. ... with respect for our personal beliefs?
Just a little something to chew on :D
Have an awesome day today! We've got a long weekend so I slept in and are just chilling :D
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Re: The Athiest

Postby PaigeB » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:03 am

I am off to bed Noel!

Mwah! =biggrin :o
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Re: The Athiest

Postby positrac » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:04 am

This topic took off and I've gotten some bad press for my opinions in the past and had to do some refreshing dance steps to redeem any credibility.

Fence sitting is a trait we've all been guilty of at some point inside and outside of AA. I grew up in a boys home and God was overly pressed down out throats for various reasons and I had issues with that long after I lived on my own. I knew something existed to get us to the point we were and I knew enough and that was my faith. My beliefs are mine and you can't take them away from me because I've earned them and that is that.

Back in the day before the net I can assure many that people got called down on certain aspects of the program and if they got hurt then tough! It was a means to make others grow in sobriety and also finding common ground. Now it seems if at any point one gets fired up they are automatically accused of being insensitive or worse and really it boils downs to our belief system.

Mary can sit on the fence and or come back and engage and outside of that she had her opinion and it was strong. Seems this topic is not one to grow daily with posts and is a thread. I guess that time will either open the doors to other beliefs for those who are doubting Thomas's and or they stay in that belief idea they have currently and thus that is their program and not mine.
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Re: The Athiest

Postby clouds » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:15 am

I like the slogan 'Let Go and Let God' especially in regard to aetheism.
" Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." page 98 A.A.
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Re: The Athiest

Postby avaneesh912 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:00 am

When to comes to this topic, i always think of what Eckhart says:

()
The word God has become empty of meaning through thousands of years of misuse. I use it sometimes, but I do so sparingly. By misuse, I mean that people who have never even glimpsed the realm of the sacred, the infinite vastness behind that word, use it with great conviction, as if they knew what they are talking about. Or they argue against it, as if they knew what it is that they are denying (atheist). This misuse gives rise to absurd beliefs, assertions, and egoic delusions, such as "My or our God is the only true God, and your God is false," or Nietzsche's famous statement "God is dead."
The word God has become a closed concept. The moment the word is uttered, a mental image is created, no longer, perhaps, of an old man with a white beard, but still a mental representation of someone or something outside you, and, yes, almost inevitably a male someone or something.
()

Its so true. For me its a personal experience. I don't try to enforce anything on anyone. And thats the beauty of AA. We just help each other find the power of their understanding.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: The Athiest

Postby Mary » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:01 am

When I went to my first meeting I was ready for God. I was ready to beg and I did. I was not brought up religious and had no interest so long as alcohol fulfilled its role for me. But when alcohols effects began to taper I had moments of clarity where I realised fearfully that it was going to take something enormous to make me stop. I knew instinctively that - No. Human. Power....could do it. I experienced seizures, blackouts and hallucinations but worse was to come - the loneliness that very few people will know - and in that space the atmosphere of something enormous - HP/the spiritual realm/God - inserted itself. And so when I arrived at my first meeting having been on my knees that very day - talk of God did not seem hokey and cultish like it may have previously done - it seemed damned frigging obvious. It was notions of non spiritual interventions that seemed and continued to do so, futile and expensively inept.

I know others have had similar experience to me but I also accept that people in far worse states through alcoholism have still not been able to surrender or experience that spiritual intervention. A marxist friend of mine tried suggesting that it wasn't spiritual but 'higher human agency'. That really irked me and still does because it was the sense of magic of being connected to something amazing that elevated me and consoled me. I did not like it being reduced to what I perceived as the hum drum. And here lies the gulf. Some seemed to be consoled by human logical explanations...I'm not! I want and need a big, huge idea because otherwise I just feel so unconnected from every one and every thing.

AA is for people who want it, not people who need it.
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Re: The Athiest

Postby Noels » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:41 am

Didn't Bill also say somewhere in the big book that we never apologise for our beliefs in Creator?
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Re: The Athiest

Postby Mary » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:58 am

@ Noels

Yes! Exactly! Thats a point I also wanted to make. It is my perception that in meetings increasingly there is so much over accommodation, enabling and kow towing to the atheistic point of view... Bending the knee towards Atheism when they have come to AA for help.
Last edited by Mary on Tue May 02, 2017 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Athiest

Postby PaigeB » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:47 am

It is my perception that in meetings increasingly there is so much over accommodation, enabling and kow towing to the atheistic point of view

This is hardly true in Iowa... We live & let live. Even as an atheist I would not change one word, or one letter of the literature, especially our Basic Text. Nor would I support it. At one time there was a meeting here that was supposed to be for atheists - I never went and I hear it folded quickly. There are online atheist groups - never been to them either.

No one f2f bothers me about my beliefs or lack thereof. Ironically, I sponsor a good catholic woman and the daughter of a Lutheran minister. I have had other religious daughters as well. I always thought that was odd until I came to Know that I didn't know anything! I am just a Channel. They share with me and I share with them. I sent the newer sponsee home with lots of prayer work after we met to read the Big Book yesterday. Oh do love the stories of the Saints! And the not so sainted, like Catherine McCauley and Thomas Merton ~ I say the Thomas Merton Prayer Daily and then some.

So I am sad when I hear someone lives in a place where ANYONE in AA would seek to stifle the spiritual flame of anyone else. It is a great wrong to stand in the way of the spiritual growth of another person. It seems small and immaterial what to nit pick about the personal choice of what kind of underwear we wear - this is a life or death matter and AA has a Solution. (with a capital "s"!)
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Re: The Athiest

Postby Brock » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:23 am

At one time there was a meeting here that was supposed to be for atheists - I never went and I hear it folded quickly. There are online atheist groups - never been to them either.

Yes, and the directory for atheist groups shows that there are not very many across the US, I expect because they are not very popular. We often have here, and in live meetings where I live, drug users saying they prefer AA meetings, and certain members say 'come on down' you are welcome, others like myself, warn about opening up AA to everyone because their meetings suck.

This is something the founders were faced with only to a very limited degree, atheism has become more popular since. And the reason for the popularity in my opinion, has much to do with it being almost fashionable, just as the need for support groups and support animals is.

I agree with Mary that AA groups generally bend over backwards “so as not to alienate the poor wee atheists,” but I believe we do so in the hope that they will come around to believing in a power similar to our own belief. In one of our books there are words something like 'they will come to speak of God,' and that is the reason I don't mind being as accommodating as I usually am.

Paige wrote about liking to read people such as Thomas Merton, and said- “I say the Thomas Merton Prayer Daily and then some.” The Merton prayer as she shared it in another thread says -
My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road though I may know nothing about it. Therefore will I trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

If someone said that prayer in a meeting where I live, and then said 'I am an atheist,' I believe we would disagree with them. It's more like an example of an ex atheist converted, and as stated above the main reason we have the patience with them, we expect they will come around, of course if they still want to identify as atheist there is little we can do about that.
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Re: The Athiest

Postby Oliver » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:33 pm

We all have our prejudices, I suppose. There can be anti-atheists and there can be anti-organised religion. Progress not perfection. Always interested to hear from people speaking a slightly different spiritual accent on the same path of recovery.
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