Fearless, but so fearful

The 12 Steps are the AA program of recovery from alcoholism.

Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Patsy© » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:46 pm

Someone send me a private message earlier today and told me to get off the Internet and get some time under my belt before I come back and I will greatly take this advice, as it seems like this is not the right place for me to feel safe to ask for help, at least not right now.


Feeya, I absolutely agree with that person who sent you the private message. I am so sorry that this happened to you and I apologize for any part that I may have played in it.... but please rest assured, this will never happen at a face to face AA meeting.

It was a pleasure meeting you Feeya :D
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby D'oh » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:38 pm

So may I ask, What did the private message say? Oh right "MYOB".

For one that preaches the Traditions. Quite a message being carried.

I hope that you may stick around Freeya, Noels. It is just getting interesting. Reminds me of the storey from Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers. Sometimes differences have to be cleared to move forward. Although I am not holding my breath.
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby D'oh » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:50 pm

We do know that in the 'old days' they went through the steps very quickly, and in the book under 'A Vision for You' we see things like this - “That afternoon he put on his clothes and walked from the hospital a free man.”


Does it not also say in that very chapter "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize that we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us."

Was there not another book, written later discussing the need to "Raise the bar a little" to meet the needs of Less Desperate cases?

Was not the Storey's in that book changed 4 times now? and without 75% vote of the membership like some suggest here.

Things change, people change, even though the first 164 pages remain unchanged, they are still Suggestions.
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Patsy© » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:52 pm

D'oh wrote:So may I ask, What did the private message say? Oh right "MYOB".

For one that preaches the Traditions. Quite a message being carried.

I hope that you may stick around Freeya, Noels. It is just getting interesting. Reminds me of the storey from Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers. Sometimes differences have to be cleared to move forward. Although I am not holding my breath.


That private message wasn't from me, but I am not surprised that you are the first here talking BS! Yeah, MYOB, fits really well when it comes to the likes of you.

I hope Feeya does what is good for her and her sobriety... and that would be what that person shared with her in a private message.....to attend face to face AA meetings and get some time under her belt before coming here and reading false information and misinformation from you about AA and anything else that you can make up on the spur of the moment!
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby D'oh » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:05 pm

Yeah, MYOB, fits really well when it comes to the likes of you.


As it does to you also. I wasn't the one who asked "What did your Sponsor say about that?" I was merely the one that pointing out that in fact it was MYOB.
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Stepchild » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:10 pm

Our book is meant to be suggestive only


What does that mean? The book describes our problem in detail...Offers clear-cut directions the founders used to solve it...And offers us a way to help other alcoholics do the same. The kit of spiritual tools is laid at our feet. Whether you pick it up or not...Is up to you.
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby D'oh » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:37 pm

What does that mean? The book describes our problem in detail...Offers clear-cut directions the founders used to solve it...And offers us a way to help other alcoholics do the same. The kit of spiritual tools is laid at our feet. Whether you pick it up or not...Is up to you.


Absolutely it does hold directions. It also says those very words. PG. 164. The question is "Why is it stated on the last page of the directions to life without Alcohol?"

Is it because one can decide after hearing the Whole Solution, or because the Solution can always be built on?
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Stepchild » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:42 pm

D'oh wrote:The question is "Why is it stated on the last page of the directions to life without Alcohol?"


Because alkies don't like to be told what to do...You can take it or leave it. The program may be suggested....But it's the only suggestion they offer.
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Brock » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:08 am

I said this to reinforce a point I was trying to make -
We do know that in the 'old days' they went through the steps very quickly, and in the book under 'A Vision for You' we see things like this - “That afternoon he put on his clothes and walked from the hospital a free man.”

It was dismissed by someone saying this -
Does it not also say in that very chapter "Our book is meant to be suggestive only...even though the first 164 pages remain unchanged, they are still Suggestions.

The same person who now says in another thread -
Page 62, I go and reflect on that page often.
Above everything, we Alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible.
I cannot think of another place in the BB that explains the same MUST twice, with the consequences, if we fail to follow them.

That's an awful lot of “musts” for someone who insists it's all suggestions.
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Tosh » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:20 am

Brock wrote:I said this to reinforce a point I was trying to make -
We do know that in the 'old days' they went through the steps very quickly, and in the book under 'A Vision for You' we see things like this - “That afternoon he put on his clothes and walked from the hospital a free man.”

It was dismissed by someone saying this -
Does it not also say in that very chapter "Our book is meant to be suggestive only...even though the first 164 pages remain unchanged, they are still Suggestions.

The same person who now says in another thread -
Page 62, I go and reflect on that page often.
Above everything, we Alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible.
I cannot think of another place in the BB that explains the same MUST twice, with the consequences, if we fail to follow them.

That's an awful lot of “musts” for someone who insists it's all suggestions.


Brock, in another post you gave all kinds of reasons for why you don't 'sponsor' guys through the 12 Steps; you know work intensively with other alcoholics.

Is that because you too see this program as 'suggestive only'?

Yet you criticise others for being this way, which is surprising.

Is there a plank in someone's eye, Brock? :lol:
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Stepchild » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:03 am

I know a lot of people that don't sponsor others. Many with decades of contented sobriety. You can carry the message and be of service...Work intensively with other alcoholics without being a sponsor. I think suggesting otherwise is ridiculous...Or just for ego inflation. The best sponsors I know....You'd never know they sponsored anyone....They don't boast about it or put pressure on others like they are doing it wrong because they don't sponsor people.
When the book was written...Nobody had taken these steps...Today millions have. I don't think it would be possible for everyone to have to rely on sponsoring people to remain sober...And many don't.
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Brock » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:08 am

I don't really understand, what does not sponsoring people have to do with seeing the program as 'suggestive only,' and I have given reasons as to why I find myself without sponsorship opportunities.
Yet you criticise others for being this way, which is surprising.

I didn't, I said he was not being consistent, saying it was suggestive only here, but highlighting the must's of the program elsewhere.
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby D'oh » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:55 am

That's an awful lot of “musts” for someone who insists it's all suggestions.


I said nothing about Not trying to follow it's principals. In fact, I look at it like a set of Ikea directions. If I want the desk to look like it does in the picture on the box, I had better follow it closely.

But it is worded Vaguely in many places, because it is open to one's own way to look at it. The "Musts" are the drawn in "Red" parts of the directions.

So My understanding of it's content, may vary greatly from another's. Which is why it works. Why it is a Program of Recovery and not a Cult, Why Sponsors are Chosen and not Delegated, Why we can be "Quick to see were Religious People are right, and make use of what they offer." and of course Have a Higher Power, of Our own understanding
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Stepchild » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:20 am

I look at it like a set of Ikea directions. If I want the desk to look like it does in the picture on the box, I had better follow it closely.


That's a good suggestion.
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Re: Fearless, but so fearful

Postby Tosh » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:12 am

Brock wrote:I don't really understand, what does not sponsoring people have to do with seeing the program as 'suggestive only,' and I have given reasons as to why I find myself without sponsorship opportunities.


I don't see that as an excuse.

Big Book, Chapter 7

"Perhaps you are not acquainted with any drinkers who want to recover. You can easily find some by asking a few doctors, ministers, priests or hospitals. They will be only too glad to assist you. Don't start out as an evangelist or reformer. "

I carry the message, I don't sit on my arse in meetings waiting to be asked for it. Out of the seven houses in my immediate vicinity where I live, I've gotten occupants from two of them to A.A.. One I sponsor, the other is out drinking.

Even while out shopping, if I see a street drunk begging for money, I'm there, talking 12 Step stuff. And I have gotten a street alcoholic into a meeting (just once, but I keep on trying, it's almost like a game; but even when I 'fail', maybe some seeds have been planted?).

My point is, the Big Book makes some suggestions which you choose to ignore, so parts of the Big Book must be only suggestions. :(
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)
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