Relapse.

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Re: Relapse.

Postby Spirit Flower » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:56 am

Are there any other writings of Bill W or the co-founders apart from the BB that deals specifically with the steps


The 12x12, for free here: http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/twelve-st ... traditions

Also, I love the book As Bill Sees It.

Relapse is not a term from the good old days. Whatever they knew is in the big book.
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Noels » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:49 am

Halloah gorgeous creatures of nature :D thank you very much for the further responses. Tosh well done my man :D Wow, serious :shock: no 7 year itch? :lol: just pulling your leg :lol: who says we don't have fun and be silly now that were sober? hehehehehehehe
Spirit Flower thank you very very much. Yes I'm still busy reading the 12x12. I find it a must read as it explains and clarifies the steps a lot more (I'm not gonna say better as some folks would be on me like a rash as a member said in another post :lol: ) but its almost as it simplifies it and makes it more understandable :?:
Avaneesh :D thank you in advance for finding some more info on the slip process. This may sound very strange but I'm trying to understand from a normal human angle. I am really battling to understand
(I) how anyone could have a problem with the concept that there is most definitely a power greater than us as although I popped out of a human something other than human must have created me. To me its very simple so I don't understand how it can not be simple to everyone else. Then I also battle to understand
(ii) how so many others can just accept something that is written by man - especially a man who had the same weaknesses / defects / flaws without questioning it or wanting to know more. I battle to understand that one human can have so much faith in another human whom they don't even know yet simultaneously battle with faith in the/an Energy who created human, the ocean, the entire planet and everything on it, the skies, the moon, the entire Universe? So I am just not getting it no matter how hard I try so by getting more info I'm hoping it could help my understanding.
I am sitting here in my office listening to the birds outside. Wow! every night around this time it is as if the entire area's birds gather in our trees and they are chirping and chatting so excitedly that I many days make up my own little story about what they're talking about. You know, how the entire family probably went out - the daddy to work, the kiddies to school or nursery (pre-primary) school, the mommy went out to " find groceries " and now all the families have returned home and are excitedly telling the grandmas and grandpas and aunties and uncles and each other about their day whilst the mommies are busy finishing supper. Excited, happy and completely content with just being home and being together.
That's what makes me wonder about humans sometimes. We have so much compared to these gorgeous little creatures. Its winter here so it gets real cold, food for them is scarce. When they fall out of the trees their little bodies are warm like ours. They bleed when they get hurt just like we do yet they always have a song to sing. Ive never seen a bird in depression or with a sad face telling another bird of his hard times. Even when the bigger birds (like the indian miners) chase little ones away they just come back and try again to get to the food we put on the grass outside. They are so small with so many life's battles yet they are so happy and content with whatever it is they have.
Anyways, I went off topic there. Looking forward to receiving some more responses and some literature relating to the steps and relapse.

Have an awesome evening. I'm off to make dinner for my two monsters. Chat again later.

mwah xxx
noels.

hehehehehe its starting to slowly quieten down in the tree :D dinner's probably almost ready so the elders and the kiddies are off to wash hands and get to the supper table :D Mommys are arranging the seating now and you can only hear a few daddys probably saying grace. ooooops there were a few youngsters argueing about whose getting the chicken leg (drumsticks) but mom quickly intervened. And stillness comes...
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Tosh » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:43 am

Noels wrote:(ii) how so many others can just accept something that is written by man - especially a man who had the same weaknesses / defects / flaws without questioning it or wanting to know more.


Hi Noels, when I first tipped up at A.A. the only concept of God that I knew about was of the 'Magic Man who lives in the sky' variety; like a Santa Claus for grown ups and I found the whole notion a bit daft.

And over time I've done a fair bit of research around the 'God thing' which involved a lot of reading. I identify as atheist, though I'm probably a pantheist (God is everything; quite literally); but none of this really matters.

My suggestion is to just put these kind of questions on the back burner; don't overly obsess about them - try to keep an open mind - and just say the 3rd Step prayer and crack on with your inventory, and the subsequent steps.

'You will be contacted', as they say in A.A.. It's quite a common experience that the later steps sorts out this kind of problem.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Feeya » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:49 am

Tosh wrote:
Noels wrote:(ii) how so many others can just accept something that is written by man - especially a man who had the same weaknesses / defects / flaws without questioning it or wanting to know more.


And over time I've done a fair bit of research around the 'God thing' which involved a lot of reading. I identify as atheist, though I'm probably a pantheist (God is everything; quite literally); but none of this really matters.


Thank you for sharing that Tosh!
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Re: Relapse.

Postby PaigeB » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:26 am

Spirit Flower wrote:
Are there any other writings of Bill W or the co-founders apart from the BB that deals specifically with the steps


The 12x12, for free here: http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/twelve-st ... traditions

Also, I love the book As Bill Sees It.

Relapse is not a term from the good old days. Whatever they knew is in the big book.

There is also the Daily Reflections. Each month 1-12 follows a different Step 1-12!
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
The e-AA Group's 7th Tradition link: www.e-aa.org/group_seventh.php
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Re: Relapse.

Postby ezdzit247 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:40 am

Hi Noels

Nancy O, one of the first women to get sober in AA, began working with AA members who relapsed almost exclusively after she was 7 years sober and wrote about her ESH in a Grapevine article. Here's an excerpt from the article on the 24 hour plan:

A twenty-four-hour program

When I was about seven years sober, I started doing Twelfth Step work with alcoholics who were in relapse, and I did this exclusively for the next seven years. The first question I would ask someone was, "Were you on the twenty-four-hour program?" I never got a yes. You work differently with relapsers; they've been around AA, they know people, they know open meetings, they know closed meetings, they know names. Sometimes they're well-known because they used to do a lot of Twelfth Step work themselves. When I was living in Westchester, I'd pick people up and take them into Manhattan to one of the big meetings. This was 1951 or later. I'd say, "We're going to sit in the back; never mind the speaker, just look around the room and tell yourself that all these people are getting sober. They don't know me, they've never seen me before in their lives, they're just getting sober the way I am. And if I practice the AA program, I'll get sober too." I would never talk about anything except getting re-established as a member of A.A. that and the twenty-four-hour program -- and so I was forced to practice it.


You can read the entire article here:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17366&

I relapsed just before what would have been my second AA birthday. I had worked all the Steps within my first six months of sobriety, was attending about 4 to 5 meetings a week, was a meeting secretary, was very active in AA service work and 12 Step work, especially H&I, and was very happy with my new sober life, but one evening I went to bed early and woke up at about a quarter to 2 am with the thought: "I've got 15 minutes before the liquor stores close!" I dashed out of house and drove to the nearest super market, bought a bottle of peach brandy, went home and drank it. When I came to out of a black out 3 or 4 days later, I had no memory of buying any more booze but found several other empty bottles of peach brandy and lots of empty beer cans stashed in my closet. After I sobered up, I went back to meetings, and spent the next month trying to figure out what I had done "wrong", why I drank again. The only thing I could come up with that I didn't do "right" was forget to remember that staying sober is a one day at a time deal and to not take that first drink....no matter what. When I came back to AA, I did something differently. I got on Nancy's O's 24 hour plan and since then have never taken another drink....no matter what. So far, so good.
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Feeya » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:20 pm

ezdzit247 wrote: After I sobered up, I went back to meetings, and spent the next month trying to figure out what I had done "wrong", why I drank again. The only thing I could come up with that I didn't do "right" was forget to remember that staying sober is a one day at a time deal and to not take that first drink....no matter what. When I came back to AA, I did something differently. I got on Nancy's O's 24 hour plan and since then have never taken another drink....no matter what. So far, so good.


The 24 hour plan is what I am taking to heart right now, as it seems that that was what caused my relapse too. Just forgot that I need to take it one day at a time, sometimes even one hour at a time and not pick up that first drink.
I am very lucky that I made it back to the program the immediate day after my relapse.

Thanks for sharing ezdzit!

Good twenty four hours everyone!
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Noels » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:50 pm

Hi guys thanks for all the responses. Much appreciated. Thank you EZ for the info and specially for your share. :D I haven't relapsed and I'm past step 3 but it somehow feels to me that I need to understand the relapse aspect better. See in my mind step 3 is the step that will make or break. For now. We know that continued spiritual growth together with the maintenance steps will ensure continued sobriety but to help a newcomer who relapsed or any other person who relapse i need to understand it myself first.
I've never had a problem with the God concept. As a matter of fact everything I do, speak and live I try to do in a spiritual manner. Therefore, because it's natural to me I don't understand how others can not automatically know and accept that there is indeed a higher power YET can follow and trust the scriptures of the BB which was written by man religiously and without question? I also have difficulty understanding the 'lower energies' of man - the lower chacra energies / reactions / responses if that makes better sense? The negative of man.
Hehehehe sounds wacky I know. Man not understanding thinking and doing of man. Maybe its cause I'm wo-man? :lol:
Lotsa love
Noels xxx
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Noels » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:56 pm

Something else I don't understand is the blank spot side of the disease. It doesn't make sense to me as if we are living in the here and now how is a blank spot going to happen?
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Reborn » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:58 pm

Relapse is not part of recovery. I know this might come off as harsh but I don't believe in relapse...its a preconceived drunk....a lurking notion..."I'm gonna try this one more time...just to see." I am in no way saying that people who relapse should be ashamed or be considered weak...alcoholics drink alcohol. This is why we must concede to our inner most selves that we are alcoholics...if that voice in the back of the head saying "come on...just one drink...just one....just one...you deserve a drink...look at how well you're doing"...gets loud especially early in recovery we must remember the tools laid at our feet. Prayer, reach out to another alcoholic and get out of self(out of your own head). Most the people I have seen relapse don't do any of these things before they take the first drink...they isolate...practicing old behavior...and pretty soon that voice basically takes over. Please don't take anything I say here the wrong way...the tools they lay out in the Big Book work...if we choose to use them...Oh and Noels I don't question the Big Book...these time tested steps...this spiritual program of ACTION...has worked for many millions of people and was around long before I was even a thought. Looking for proof or over analyzing is just my ego looking for loopholes.
We have recovered, and have been given the power to help others. BB pg 132
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Noels » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:32 pm

Aaaah EZ that was such a nice read thank you :D And I read the posts as well. I absolutely love the way you guys discuss and agree and disagree. Like a big happy family :D all nice and cosy. I didn't see one nasty belitteling post there yet everyone made their point. And Tosh with his matey :lol: love that :lol: you know you're walking on dangerous ground when Tosh says matey :lol: Like the tip of my dad's nose would go white just before " danger time " it feels as if it was a lot more natural conversation in that period - 2015 compared to now. Its as if we're all watching our words very carefully this year. Perhaps it had something to do with the blue moon. That was last year wasn't it? We should all really just relax and not read into each other's posts which is most probably not there. Then we'll have a nice natural warm and cosy conversation like that one also. Now THAT is AA :D
Thanks for this and for the posts. I think what I was trying to get through in my previous posts was also heart talk. Anyways, that link and the posts cheered me up so now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside :D
Enjoy the rest of the evening. I'm gonna check if there's anything else interesting here and then off to my happy place.
So nite nite, chat again soon
love and light
Noels xxx
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Brock » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:43 pm

I don't understand how others can not automatically know and accept that there is indeed a higher power YET can follow and trust the scriptures of the BB which was written by man religiously and without question?

Some without question accept the higher power idea, many do not, so the program in the book is laid out to suit everyone. A non believer will have the opportunity to believe even in just the group as a power higher than themselves, and as has been stated over and over, doing the steps will lead them to further understanding, I think in the book it says 'they will come to speak of God.' I didn't need that and neither apparently did you, but we can be pleased that others will get a chance to understand also.

Before the book and AA, the Oxford movement from which much has been 'borrowed' by us, had a very spiritual method, to the point it might have been considered a 'religious' organization. The founders of AA were bible scholars, I have read of Dr. Bob having the habit of asking hospital patients quite bluntly “do you believe in God?” if the answer was no out you go. And Bill took groups to listen to the famous preacher Emmit Fox often, and when asked where the fundamental ideas of AA come from he always called the name of religious leaders, including Rev. Sam Shoemaker.

And there are AA type books, written for people who have religious training and spiritual belief already, these would not appeal to those who don't have such belief upfront. So we shouldn't question why so many people have followed and trusted this book which was written by a 'mere man,' we should rejoice that God gave him the words, that would bring doubters to believe by following a series of steps.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Noels » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:53 pm

Hi Brock, thanks for the reply and youre right. Instead of questioning it I must change my thought pattern to being grateful that others can also be helped to get in touch with their HP. Quite right.
And there are AA type books, written for people who have religious training and spiritual belief already wont you please send me a list - on PM if necessary if it wont be allowed on the site? Maybe that will help me more at this stage.
Much appreciated and nite nite
Love and Light
Noels xxx
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Re: Relapse.

Postby Spirit Flower » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:21 pm

Noels wrote:Hi Brock, thanks for the reply and youre right. Instead of questioning it I must change my thought pattern to being grateful that others can also be helped to get in touch with their HP. Quite right.
And there are AA type books, written for people who have religious training and spiritual belief already wont you please send me a list -...
Noels xxx



viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17314
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Re: Relapse.

Postby ezdzit247 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:07 pm

Relapse is not part of recovery. I know this might come off as harsh but I don't believe in relapse...its a preconceived drunk....a lurking notion..."I'm gonna try this one more time...just to see."....


It's very harsh AND it's a very false statement.

Relapse is a very common occurrence among AA members in recovery and has been since the earliest days of AA. Some things are true whether you believe in them or not.
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